[Closed] STW cyclist disagrees with police shocker. Two abreast not allowed.

The cop is wrong. It is not illegal to ride two abreast. Should not in the highway code is advisory, must not is mandatory

If the road is not wide enough for two cars and a bike with plenty of room then ride wide out into the road (primary position) to prevent cars squeezing past and to make yourself more visible. This probably means that there is room for another bike on the inside.

[i]Now I'm scared about cycling because I don't want to get pulled by the rozzers again but also don't want to have to cycle single file everywhere. I would say that all the roads here are narrow so we can't justify two abreast.[/i]

Why be worried about something that isn't against the law?

And if you don't mind asking, how old are you...

Recommended reading:

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Dave

If it's narrow/twisty and I'm out riding with others, we'll generally double up and chat when there's nothing about and drop into single file if we here a vehicle approaching. Easy enough.

Just because it says single file is best doesn't make it illegal to cycle two abreast. At the end of the day a car should not overtake unless it is safe to do so, you have as much right to use the road as a car

IANAL but the highway code is not law, although many bits of it are covered by laws.

The cycling two abreast certainly isn't law, you are legally allowed to cycle in any position in the lane as long as you are in the correct lane of teh highway.

Whether this is considered "safe" on the raods you are riding is down to opinion.

Back to supporting the Highway Code TJ? After it was BS last week? 🙂

What is the problem with riding single file? As far as I'm concerned I want to give cars as much room to overtake as I can, withoutcramping myself or other riders with me. Holding up traffic, who are waiting to overtake you, so you can ride 2 abreast is being a dick.

IHN talks sense!

Before all the desktop legal experts appear, from the Highway Code:

You [b]should[/b] never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends

[b]Should[/b] means it's advised but is not a legal requirement.

EDIT - If it said [b]must/must not[/b] it would be a legal requirement.

There may also be further implications regarding claims of contributory negligence should you be in an accident when ignoring the above HC advice, but I'm not a legal expert...

Phone police station and ask to speak to his boss. Get it sorted out, so he doesnt make the same mistake again.

I asked if he was lying to me

#351 on the list of odd things to say to a copper.

TBF I think the copper was just trying to get a point across that you are a soft target against a metal box out of control on wheels.

Although the highway code is not law it does make a lot of common sense. Single file cycling on a narrow lane IMO is a lot safer so I'd always do that. It also gives you the option to jump sideways into a bush if required as opposed to sideways into your mate!

OOPS!

bobbyg81 - Member

Now you may laugh but try George jeans from Asdas! I bough a pair for gardening and they were so comfy I bought a few others for wearing out and about. Quality is as good as anything from Next or River Island and they were only £8!

thread choice fail 🙂

#351 on the list of odd things to say to a copper.

😆

Single file is much safer and crucially more considerate to other road users as it makes overtaking you easier.

Unless it's a quiet road - ride single file. If it's a busy road and you're not riding single file then you're not really being considerate to other road users.

Should've told the copper that if he's going to pull you over to tell you about an advisory term in the highway code he should come out for a ride and pull every motorist who doesn't follow the advisory terms of HC.

Maybe he was just bored?

Dunno, I just think if I called the police every time some car doesn't give me my regulation 3 feet (or 1m) of room when overtaking I'd never get to work.

bobbyg81 - Member

Now you may laugh but try George jeans from Asdas! I bough a pair for gardening and they were so comfy I bought a few others for wearing out and about. Quality is as good as anything from Next or River Island and they were only £8!

#352 on the list of odd things to say to a copper.

drookit, I'm not sure what will kill you first, your encouragement of dodgy overtaking, or the wrath of the STW IAM clan.

bobbyg81 - Member

Now you may laugh but try George jeans from Asdas! I bough a pair for gardening and they were so comfy I bought a few others for wearing out and about. Quality is as good as anything from Next or River Island and they were only £8!

#352 on the list of odd things to say to a copper.

I once got off with peeing up a close for dispensing this wisdom to the Filth! 🙂

drookit, I'm not sure what will kill you first, your encouragement of dodgy overtaking, or the wrath of the STW IAM clan.

When did I encourage "dodgy overtaking"?! Bikes are slow and need to be passed. If they're riding double file it's a pain.

Cyclists (and motorists) need to drop this "us and them" attitude and be more considerate.

Also, what's the "STW IAM" clan? Sorry I don't talk STW...

OK, my money's on the wrath of the STW IAM posse now 😛

Idiot cyclists who show no consideration for other road users just give us all a bad name.

Single file is much safer and crucially more considerate to other road users as it makes overtaking you easier.

Unless it's a quiet road - ride single file. If it's a busy road and you're not riding single file then you're not really being considerate to other road users.

A motorist's 'need' to overtake doesn't trump your safety- they don't have priority.

All things being equal you are of course right, cyclists shouldn't go out of their way to hold up drivers or anybody else. But all things are rarely equal because given the opportunity far too many drivers will overtake at almost any cost or risk, so when it's better that they don't they'll just have to wait.

he wasn't allowed to lie as he was a policeman

Made my day...

Back to the original post.. I'd be pretty pissed off too if you were riding two abreast on a narrow road holding all the traffic up.

Why couldn't you simply go single file if you were obviously causing an obstruction?

Bit of common courtesy wouldn't go amiss by the sound of it.

OK that's 2 now.

so when it's better that they don't they'll just have to wait.

...... or turn out to be the type that get angry and frustrated and force their way past

You can at least die knowing you were right

When did I encourage "dodgy overtaking"?!

by giving motorists the option to "just squeeze past"

Bikes are slow and need to be passed.

so are tractors, roadsweepers and big ass cranes. i seriously dont recommend squeezing past any of these vehicles, so why would you think its acceptable for cars to do that to a cyclist?

If they're riding double file it's a pain.

tough. all overtakes should be safe, legal and necessary whether you are overtaking a ferrari, a crane or a bike.

Hi

We ride 2 abreast when it's quiet (and if a car comes up behind us on a road we single out). Single file most of the rest of the time. That's in the cycle unfriendly SE of England. We consider this the most considerate to drivers (and you get less hassle this way).

It's not illegal to ride 2-abreast otherwise road racing would be illegal!

Depends whose opinion you value the most:
Professional law enforcement officers quoting road safety publication Vs embittered old unemployed bloke on the internet 😆

OK, my money's on the wrath of the STW IAM posse now

+1

This thread demonstrates to me again why a reputation based system such as StackExchange is better. Yes, I am aware that I may not have been able to post that.

Also, what is this "cyclist" or "motorist"?

I am not defined by my mode of transport. It's all just "people" trying to get somewhere.

And if you don't mind asking, how old are you...

I'm 23.

Maybe he was just bored?

It was a Sunday morning and the roads south of Oban are mostly not busy.

Unless it's a quiet road - ride single file. If it's a busy road and you're not riding single file then you're not really being considerate to other road users.

What is a road? The road we were on had 2 lanes and there isn't enough room for 2 cars and 1 bike to be side by side comfortably/safely. Is it holding up traffic therefore by riding two abreast in this instance? Riding two abreast isn't holding up the traffic since it still wouldn't have been safe to overtake if we were single file, right?

Back to the original post.. I'd be pretty pissed off too if you were riding two abreast on a narrow road holding all the traffic up.

On a very narrow road I'd never ride two abreast with a car behind.

What is a narrow road?

Two abreast is inconsiderate and bloody annoying.

jcromton (and everyone who has an opinion) - could a driver have safely overtaken 2-abreast, when there's no oncoming traffic?

[i]otherwise road racing would be illegal![/i]

It is illegal.

EDIT - oh, sorry, no it's not, but there are certain laws concerning it. Carry on.

This thread demonstrates why people are hesitant to discuss things on STW. Well done guys and girls!

why enhft?

if you a riding single file in the correct position (i,e, not gutter jumping) and car drivers are leaving the correct gap for the overtake e.g. a car door width, then they have to be on the opposite side of the carriageway anyway. riding two abreast is no different, its just eliminates the option of drivers having a look up the outside and squeezing by using the safety margins as overtaking space.

i just dont get this attitude that we need to be out of the way as we're a nuisance on the road.

Interesting concept Nick, though it seems it's just turning into another flaming forum:

Criticism

In April, 2009 Stack Exchange implemented a policy of "timed suspension",[41] in order to curtail users whose actions are deemed to be detrimental to the community. Criticism of this new feature has focused on the broad nature of such definitions.[citation needed] Critics[who?] also point to the authoritarian tone and punitive nature set by the new policy and the arbitrary judgement it allows. Users who are deemed problematic may be suspended for a period of time based on a moderator's judgement. The suspension is accompanied by a temporary removal of the user's reputation score and an announcement on the user's profile page informing the community of the suspension and general reason.

Two abreast is inconsiderate and bloody annoying.

How? Surely not in all situations? If the road is so narrow that the car can't over take then yes, I agree with you and I'd never cycle two abreast in that situation. If the road is wide enough for the car to overtake, then what is the problem?

I am not defined by my mode of transport. It's all just "people" trying to get somewhere.

That's nice, but unfortunately many people who happen to drive cars and not ride bikes think your rights to the road (and therefore how you should expect to be treated) [i]are[/i] defined by your mode of transport.

Whenever we're out on the bikes we always give priority to motorised vehicle. If we're obviously holding up traffic we'll even pull in and let them pass.

In all my years riding I've never personally gone out on a ride with anyone who acts differently, nor frankly would I want too.

Two abreast holds up traffic, and roadies riding two abreast give all cyclists a bad rep.

If I understand it correctly, the IAM position is: where a cyclist considers it unsafe to be overtaken he can (and should) take up the whole of his lane, in order to stop himself being overtaken.

This is being extended by the IAM posse to include riding 2-abreast.

There is of course the situation where 1 cyclist could be overtaken safely but 2 could not, upon which I reserve comment.

I know the roads there, and they are generally quiet. I would ride two abreast no bother at all. If there was cars approaching from the rear they have plenty of room to pull out and overtake, if there are no oncoming cars. If there are, they need to slow down and wait for a few seconds, hell its Oban they are going to/from so not in a hurry.

If there is sustained oncoming cars, and some from behind, go single file, but keep out 1. this avoids anyone trying to squeeze by and 2. avoids anyone shouting at you for riding 2 abreast (although you legally can do and it would not make much difference if you did)

Two abreast is inconsiderate and bloody annoying.

Two abreast is inconsiderate and bloody annoying.

lots of things annoy me in life. slowing down for a couple of minutes on the roads is not one of them.

you need to chill out a bit.

What is a road? The road we were on had 2 lanes and there isn't enough room for 2 cars and 1 bike to be side by side comfortably/safely. Is it holding up traffic therefore by riding two abreast in this instance? Riding two abreast isn't holding up the traffic since it still wouldn't have been safe to overtake if we were single file, right?

this is the case.

Once again on this cyclists forum we get people with very anti cyclists sentiments.

cyclists do not hold up traffic - they are traffic. If the road is not wide enough to allow 2 cars and a bike then its no point in riding in single file.as a safe overtake is not possible without the other side of the road being clear so two abreast or single file makes no difference

Roads will never be roadie-friendly, not in the UK. No point pretending two abreast is reasonable or practical.

Amazed again.

Sounds like the same attitude as the woman who beeped her horn at me when I overtook another cyclist. Riding 2 abreast for all of a second I was.
Maybe she was a STWer too.

Roads will never be roadie-friendly, not in the UK. No point pretending two abreast is reasonable or practical.

I have found roads to be roadie friendly. Just thank god there are plenty of decent drivers that don't share your views.

DezB did you MSM?

TJ.. Just because someone has consideration for other road users doesn't make them anti-cyclist.

and someone who will try and squeeze past a single cyclist will try and squeeze past two just as readily when the opportunity arises.

Wallace, I think you've helped me close the argument.

The way I see it, there are two kinds of roads:

Narrow roads where it is impossible for a car to get past two abreast. In these situations just ride single file when a car approaches (from rear or front) or pull into passing place if it's a single track. This is something I've always done and is basically common sense.

Normal road (like most A roads IME) where it is easily possible for a car to overtake cyclists riding two abreast and also possible for two cars and a cyclist right at the side to pass. In these situations where it is quiet, two abreast is fine because there's plenty of room for overtaking when it's safe and the car will never overtake when a car is coming the other way (due to two abrest). However, as common courtesy in busy periods as wallace pointed out, one should ride single file out from the gutter to show we're not being dicks but that we don't want them to over take then cars are coming the other way (surely this is fair).

Further to this, I believe the policeman was trying to point out that riding two abreast round corners is silly because what happens if a car is coming the other way on our side of the road, you're better prepared in single file.

I hope I've not come across as arrogant / inconsiderate because I certainly wouldn't think of myself this way.

someone who will try and squeeze past a single cyclist will try and squeeze past two just as readily when the opportunity arises.

They won't though, because of the laws of physics.

Also, what does IAM and MSM mean, cynic-al?

I recently went on a RED light awareness course. And guess what, this was one of the questions.
Although the highway code is not specific it does state that:
1. Horse riders can be two abreast - that did surprise me.
2. Cyclists can be two abreast.

Really, it's down to the width of the road and interpretation of, is it safe to be two-abreast? Are you endangering others?
Hence, imo the copper could have thought it was dangerous to be two-abreast and instructed you to be single file.

If horse riders can ride 2-abreast then cyclists certainly can!
Should have ask the copper about horse riders...

They won't though, because of the laws of physics.

They will though.. Someone who sees a foot of space adequate to safely pass a cyclist will do the same for two. Of course they'll need more space overall, but they'll still overtake just as close.

Institutes of Advanced Motorists - ironically a body idoilised by some on here who are anti-car.

Mirror Signal Maneouvre

elzorillo - Member

Back to the original post.. I'd be pretty pissed off too if you were riding two abreast on a narrow road holding all the traffic up.

Why couldn't you simply go single file if you were obviously causing an obstruction?

Bit of common courtesy wouldn't go amiss by the sound of it.

cyclists do not hold up traffic - they are traffic.

common courtesy - like cars waiting until its safe to pass? Levaing a sufficient amount of room as described the highway code?

Thats a very anti bike sentiment. treating bikes as second class road users.

riding out from the kerb prevents cars squeezing past. If you do this then there is room for a bike on the inside - of course you also do whatever is needed to facilitate the cars overtake when its safe to do so - however you as the cyclist being overtaken need to take control of the situation.

Do you actually ride on the roads elzorillo

Do you actually ride on the roads elzorillo

Cycled to work on the roads for 20+ years.. raced (world champs 89/90).. rode for pleasure my whole life.. Done the lot, but never once viewed myself above giving way to other road users once in a while.

Cycled to work on the roads for 20+ years.. raced (world champs 89/90).. rode for pleasure my whole life

That's all well and good but have you had as much experience of being right as TJ has?
I think you'll find that you haven't

Done the lot, but never once viewed myself above giving way to other road users once in a while.

TJ
of course you also do whatever is needed to facilitate the cars overtake when its safe to do so -

Done the lot, but never once viewed myself above giving way to other road users once in a while

The impression I get is that no one here views themselves as being above giving way to other road users. Everyone rides single file where they're holding cars up or it's just courteous to do so even though the car can't overtake.

The point is that roads aren't so narrow that cars can't get past when riding two abreast but are wide enough that if we were single file a car could dangerously squeeze past at bad times.

[i]cynic-al - Member
DezB did you MSM?[/i]

No, I looke.... hang on, you're trying to make it [i]my fault[/i], aren't you?

I think there's a psychological thing going on here i.e to non-cyclists - single file equals considerate, 2 abreast equals inconsiderate, despite what the conditions suggest.

However if i'm driving and I come up behind a cyclist, I have to cross the white line to overtake. So it doesn't matter how many bikes are riding abreast in front of me, I can't pass if a vehicle is coming in the other direction so it shouldn't matter unless it really is so narrow that no car can pass if the bikes are two abreast.

Moving single file maight make some non-cyclists feel like you're giving way etc but if they're leaving the right amount of space in the first place it wouldn't be an issue

chamley, that is exactly correct.

However upon reconsidering my original post, it seemed that the policeman was more concerned for all cyclists to be single file because of safety, not because we hold people up. He said it is much safer to ride single file than two abreast. I think we've gone off topic a bit talking about car drivers who get mardy.

Ultimately the question should be: what is safest for the cyclist? Two abreast to stop bad overtakes and half the length of the chain or single file to keep us out of the way and ensure we can all jump into a ditch if there's a proverbial fan involved?

These posts come up at least once a week and the only answer is for everyone involve to use a bit of common sense and courtesy.
jcrompton your post is a good example of that:

jcromton - Member
Wallace, I think you've helped me close the argument.

The way I see it, there are two kinds of roads:

Narrow roads where it is impossible for a car to get past two abreast. In these situations just ride single file when a car approaches (from rear or front) or pull into passing place if it's a single track. This is something I've always done and is basically common sense.

Normal road (like most A roads IME) where it is easily possible for a car to overtake cyclists riding two abreast and also possible for two cars and a cyclist right at the side to pass. In these situations where it is quiet, two abreast is fine because there's plenty of room for overtaking when it's safe and the car will never overtake when a car is coming the other way (due to two abrest). However, as common courtesy in busy periods as wallace pointed out, one should ride single file out from the gutter to show we're not being dicks but that we don't want them to over take then cars are coming the other way (surely this is fair).

Then it is settled.

Thanks all, now I need to speak to the policeman again.

Lot of roadies 2-up on the way to Inners on Sunday, and I have to say I was cringing for their own safety and at how peed off drivers were getting with them, there were some really dodgy overtaking moves and hard braking when we came upon them round a corner. Much easier to pass a single cyclist than two on those kind of roads, I think if they could have seen how close people were getting to them they would have gone single file.

cyclists do not hold up traffic - they are traffic

+1

Most of problems seem to be from drivers complete inability to slow down behind a cyclist for any length of time. Even a few seconds seems to be enough to aggrieve a lot of drivers.

I think we've gone off topic a bit

New here are you?? 😆

If it's a big group of cyclists the car would have a longer overtake if they were riding single file. How is this "safer"?

you have as much right to use the road as a car

wrong!
as a subject of her majesty you have an unalienable right to use the queens highway. motorists are merely licensed and must pay for this privilege, this is discretionary and may be revoked at any time by the authorities.

so you have a right to use the highway, the motorist doesn't

There will be prevailing road traffic conditions (carriage size, visibility, weather, amount of other road traffic etc) where cycling two abreast may amount to Dangerous, Careless or Inconsiderate Cycling as defined by Sections 28 & 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, and in those circumstances you run the risk of being reported for summons, depending on how the officer interprets the situation. Common sense generally prevents people from rendering themselves liable to prosecution.

Regarding the Highway Code - Section 38 (sub section 7) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 states -

[i]A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the M1Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the M2Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings.[/i]

... so, if the HC says don't do it, you ought not to - as it could be quoted to lend weight to a prosecution case!

Sadly, practicalities don't really enter in to it. If the road is narrow enough that cars have to cross the centre line to overtake a single cyclist, then technically, two abreast is more considerate as it halves the length of the group.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of drivers who simply can't get past the "inconsiderate idiots riding two abreast" mentality.

Interesting reading on the single file two abreast thing... I spent al the on road sections of a TCL and MBL riding two abreast in a box of 8 riders. We took up the ground footprint of a long car.

It was interesting on a couple of levels:
Uncomfortable as I usually ride in my own space single file plus the response of drivers varied between scary overakes and beeping horns...

Not good on a busy high st.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs, I think the policeman's advice was pragmatic good sense on roads with poor sightlines.

epicyclo - but riding out from the edge you can see and been seen for further can you not? - especially on left handers

I used to get pissed with cyclists riding two abreast when driving. Then I started thinking. If you give a cyclist a proper berth you pretty much have to overtake properly - like use the other carriageway as if you were passing a car. Which means that one or two abreast makes little difference. Cyclists that pull back to single file when cars are waiting behind and where it might make safe overtaking easier send a courteous message. Let them pass, give the driver a wave. Maybe he/she will be courteous back again. Give and take. We are all road users and most of us get it about right.