Stuxnet – US and Israel put their hands up…..

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/confirmed-us-israel-created-stuxnet-lost-control-of-it/

Intended target was a nuclear refining facility…. but the worm got out into the wild by accident! (apparently..)

Nasty people doing nasty things to eachother, it does sound like a movie script.

click on the link and a nano worm will eat another Iranian centrifuge

I have to think Siemens are pretty culpable in this one too.

Blimey. Working for Kaspersky has become a whole lot more interesting lately.

Nasty people doing nasty things to eachother, it does sound like a movie script.

Sounds like a night out in town.

Dooomed

Seems quite sensible to me – who wants a nuclear capable Iran? Much better write a virus than bomb the f*** out of them.

footflaps – Member

Seems quite sensible to me – who wants a nuclear capable Iran? Much better write a virus than bomb the f*** out of them.

[dons Devils Advocate hat]

As the Yanks have been the only ones to use nuclear weapons in anger, why should we entrust them to make decisions?

[/and back away slowly]

As the Yanks have been the only ones to use nuclear weapons in anger, why should we entrust them to make decisions?

Facile argument. Totally different time/situation.

As the Yanks have been the only ones to use nuclear weapons in anger, both times on civilian targets, why should we entrust them to make decisions?

FTFY

Facile argument. Totally different time/situation.

Totally relevant IMO. American casualties/world dominance/show of force. What’s different, apart from the wrapping paper?

Seems quite sensible to me – who wants a nuclear capable Iran? Much better write a virus than bomb the f*** out of them.

Well it might stop another war/invasion.

And what’s the excuse for now going after their oil industry?

How many wars have the Americans started in the last 40 years? How many have the Iranians started?

How many terrorists have the Americans armed? how many the Iranians?

American armed BOTH sides in the Iran /Iraq war

How many terrorists have the Americans armed? how many the Iranians?

Seeing your point but assuming you bump into that wasps nest at the bottom of your garden you really won’t care that it’s been there for decades without harming you, or that the dog next door bit you last week.

molgrips – Member

Facile argument. Totally different time/situation.

Do expand on this as I’m genuinely interested in your point of view.

As regards Stuxnet, I think it was a very good operation, if not a little too good.

who wants a nuclear capable Iran?

anyone who wants to stop another pointless war for oil?

Seeing your point but assuming you bump into that wasps nest at the bottom of your garden you really won’t care that it’s been there for decades

good point best not attack the wasps nest then …..thank god no one is talking up that possibility

and apparently the US was responsible for a Russian gas pipeline blowing up, & the Russians blame them for the recent loss of their new airliner.
Cyberwarfare may get very sticky soon.

Ok, so nukes have a non-proliferation agreement and, quite frankly, you’d have to be mad to use them again on anything. Cyber weapons may not be as immediately and spectacularly damaging, but something like Stuxnet proves that they can cause physical damage. If Stuxnet was modified, who’s to say that it could not be repurposed to hit something else instead of a centrifuge?

Where’s the cyber weapon non-proliferation treaty?

Oh, and that was just one virus out of many flowing round the internet. If you want to be sensible, ban them all globally and make countries lock up the authors. I’m sure that will go down well with some countries.

If Stuxnet was modified, who’s to say that it could not be repurposed to hit something else instead of a centrifuge?

Like an oil refinery or something?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-05-30/iran-computer-virus/55278440/1

If Stuxnet was modified, who’s to say that it could not be repurposed to hit something else instead of a centrifuge?

It probably could, but the it would have to be the original authors doing so(being the only ones with the source code). In which case they would probably just start from scratch.

Iran as a country is totally bonkers and is run by people who are bonkers. They openly state they want to destroy Israel, they arm extremists in Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen and Aghanistan. If they gained a nuclear capability it would be a really bad thing for everyone. Regardless of how twatty Israeli and US foreign policy is or has been.

Americans have given Israel nuclear weapons but luckily they have a great record of behaving impeccably when it comes to using “attack as the best form of defence”, I mean that illegal white phosphorous attack on gaza and the UN just sort of happened by magic didn’t it ?

Iran having nukes may actually stop the silly feckers for a while…..or start world war 3, but hey they’re liked by the yanks so that makes them the good guys doesn’t it

nonesense are you suggesting north korea and pakistan are stable countries you would give the bomb too? We also had communist russia, China and South Africa

Why be more worried about Iran than them ? the real reason is if you have nukes no one can bully you that is what we fear -well and israel doing something as their track record of offensive defence is rather long and inglorious. Offensively it is a useless weapon. It’s like me having a grenade in a room with you. It is of no use in helping me win the fight but I can take you with me thatis what nukes give you, everyone leave you alone.

FWIW france and the UK gave israel [ the technology to make]nukes rather than the US

Much better write a virus than bomb the f*** out of them.

Except the irony seems to be that Fukushima was struggling to shut down due to technical issues, which indicates that the worm also struck there, and now the US is being hit with the radiation fallout from Japan.

Do expand on this as I’m genuinely interested in your point of view

Right, well with regards Hiroshima etc

1) There was already a full scale world war on so it didn’t do much that wasn’t happening already – it just did it all in one go.
2) The bomb was way less powerful than a modern one
3) 30 years of cold war angst had not happened
4) Many people thought (and still think) that by bringing a terribly bloody war to an end very quickly it actually saved many many lives
5) It was the first time it had happened, no-one had seen the consequences.

It’s like me having a grenade in a room with you.

Or maybe like having a bomb strapped to your own body, perhaps? Hmm.

Not sure what are trying to say there re strapped to you tbh.

I dont disagree with your view re America and the nukes in WW2.

You said that nukes were a useless weapon because you kill yourself at the same time as everyone else due to retaliation. I was trying to say that some cultures might not view that kind of death the same way.

Not saying that Iran would think that way – it’s pretty drastic, and you’d have to stretch things to consider nuked civilians as dying honourably in battle, but you never know.

they key there would be in battle -they may do it defensively but offensively?
The regime would be destroyed by the subsequent attack and what is the point being the dead ruler of a barren nuclear wasteland? That why I think it is unlikely a sate would use them that is bonkers as they crave power above all things. Take North Korea as batty as can be but any attack means the end of the regime so our dear leader [ is this one just honourable?] wont use them as it is to kill yourself and your power base.
I think this applies to all states.
I understand why some may be sacred but the fear but I think it is misplaced. we dont want them to have the power to stand up to us IMHO. Probably easier to befriend russia and china if syria is anything to go by

who wants a nuclear capable Iran?

Me !!!

I think it’s an excellent idea. After all, unless they’ve been lying to us for the last 60 odd years, two potential enemies having nuclear weapons is the best way to guarantee peace.

Even Ehud Barak, the former Israeli Prime Minister and Defence Minister, thinks it’s a good idea that Iran should want nuclear weapons :

Ehud Barak: If I was Iran, I would “probably” want nuclear weapons[/url]

I don’t delude myself that they are doing it just because of Israel. They have their history of 4,000 years. They look around and they see the Indians are nuclear. The Chinese are nuclear, Pakistan in nuclear as well as South Korea, not to mention the Russians.

Sadly it appears that Iran has no intentions of acquiring nuclear weapons, well that’s what the Israeli military chief reckons anyway:

Israeli military chief: Iran will not decide to make nuclear weapons

Israel’s military chief, Benny Gantz, has stated he doesn’t believe Iran will decide to make nuclear weapons and that Iranian key decision makers are rational.

And US intelligence agrees with him :

Iran hasn’t got an active nuclear weapons programme, says US intelligence

According to the US intelligence community Iran hasn’t got an active nuclear weapons programm. Israeli intelligence agrees with this view

The US intelligence community set out this view in a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) in November 2007. It remains the view of the US intelligence community today.

So it appear a nuclear imbalance will remain in the Middle East. Although I guess that if the West continues to threaten Iran with attacks and invasion then they might hopefully change their minds and acquire nuclear weapons, thereby averting war.

They openly state they want to destroy Israel

Oh that old chestnut? Quotes please.

Like many people I openly want to see the Zionist State destroyed, in much the same way as I wanted to see the Apartheid State destroyed. It is a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold. I don’t expect to be physically attacked for having that opinion.

Seems to me we’re having the wrong argument here, about nuclear weapons… When you ask the question “Who should be allowed to have them”, the answer isn’t “Well America, Britain, maybe Israel, but not Iran or Pakistan…” It’s “nobody at all”

northwinds right the idea that anyone should have a weapon that can kill hundreds of thousands of people at once is insane

So they’ve been lying to us for the last 60 odd years then ……….. nuclear weapons aren’t a good idea because they don’t keep the peace ? 😐

Well actually now that I think about it, the US and the UK have been in quite a few wars in the last 60 years, despite having nuclear weapons.

we dont want them to have the power to stand up to us IMHO

I dunno – possibly, but maybe we just don’t want another cold war on our hands. The west went through that already.

If other states had not been ‘allowed’ to have them the West might have a stronger case.

ernie_lynch – Member

So they’ve been lying to us for the last 60 odd years then ……….. nuclear weapons aren’t a good idea because they don’t keep the peace ?

Is the cold war still going? Some people would debate whether MAD ever really worked- I don’t have an informed opinion. But it’s done with.

but maybe we just don’t want another cold war on our hands

What’s wrong with cold wars ? They seem to me infinitely better than hot wars, of which we have plenty. At least people don’t have to die.

We’re currently doing a lot of control systems security work and I’ve been following Stuxnet in detail since the day it broke. I actually wrote an article around where it came from which i will dig out – we suggested that it was a western country, large, eat hamburgers a lot !
The whole space is quite interesting and we did some specific test work which activated pcls – a PoC for a new prison where we could open the doors remotely stuff like that. The centrifuge thing is actually more to do with the controller logic, similar pcls exist in lots of other scada and control systems – electricity transmission, generation, water, gas, nuclear etc. As well as weird stuff like nfc and autmoated medical pumps – i theorised about how you could compromise an insulin pump, it is possible in theory at the moment. Anyway, the sky is falling in so i better go now !

Some people would debate whether MAD ever really worked

It worked in the sense that it stopped a direct NATO v Warsaw Pact war but it didn’t work in the sense that it just channelled that military confrontation into proxy wars in other countries which killed millions. The Cold War probably seemed pretty hot if you were in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, El Salvador, Iran, Iraq etc.