Southern Rail strike – who is right?

Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.

No they don’t. Do you know how I know that? I live in East Grinstead.

Zing!

Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden.

No they don’t. Do you know how I know that? I live in East Grinstead.

Apologies, I meant Uckfield, not sure how far they run as DOO, presumably they’re not at East Grinstead. Happy to be wrong on that point.

That’s not to say there isn’t a guard on the train, just how they operate. Same with all the Arun Valley trains now – DOO south of 3 Bridges

Seventeen minutes late, water seeping through the cables at Effingham Junction – there was a lot of Effingham and a good deal of Blindingham!

Southern Rail strike – who is right?

Ask Nigel Farage, then adopt the polar opposite viewpoint. Usually does the trick.

This is what a DOO driver gets to see in his display. Now imagine monitoring 500+ passengers using 24 sets of doors through that display knowing that the ORR and Crown prosecution service are to pin manslaughter upon you if you get it wrong.

And if you aren’t lucky enough to have an on board display….you get this.

It’s far far better to have a guard physically stood on the platform to observe the door closing procedure.
DOO was brought into service at a time when the railways were in terminal decline. They weren’t running 12 car units with 1000+ people on them.

ASLEF are more than happy to discuss an agreement like Scotrail introduced whereby the driver opens the doors and the guards closes them. This could have been settled a long time ago..

Hmm just back to this.

Bikebuoy, good trolling.

Apologies, I meant Uckfield, not sure how far they run as DOO, presumably they’re not at East Grinstead. Happy to be wrong on that point.

Furry muff, no worries. I can’t really comment on the Uckfield line: Although my Parents live there, I’ve only ever used that line once, after last years company xmas lunch, and I was rather drunk, so I can remember much detail

It’s far far better to have a guard physically stood on the platform to observe the door closing procedure.
DOO was brought into service at a time when the railways were in terminal decline. They weren’t running 12 car units with 1000+ people on them.

In which case why strike on Southern Trains only? The problem is with the ORR who are allowing dangerous practices, not with one specific rail firm. Problems with DOO are not specific to Southern.

And why is the only body making this case a body who happen to have a strong alternative reason to prevent automation. Quite a coincidence.

Occams razors says the rail firms want DOO to reduce headcount and the Unions are opposing it to prevent a reduction in headcount.

Have you sent those photos to the ORR? What did they say about them?

A nice little summary of the other issue the RMT has

Southern has become the critical battleground in a war over how trains are staffed in future.
Aslef and the RMT union joined forces in November 2015 to draw a line in the sand. No more DOO.
Bear in mind, if these changes go through the RMT will have less power to stop trains if it calls strikes in future. Because services will be able to run without one of their conductors on board.
Whatever happens here will be reflected in future franchises as they take delivery of new DOO trains. I believe Northern is next

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38287571
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38305415

The ORR say

In a newly published letter to Louise Ellman, the chair of the Transport Select Committee, written after he appeared before the committee on 14 November, Prosser said he “would like to reiterate” that the ORR believes DOO can be operated safely.
He added that, as with all methods of train dispatch, “suitably maintained equipment, proper procedures and competent, trained staff” must be in place.

And the RSSB say

The director of system safety at the RSSB, Dr George Bearfield, has defended the organisation’s decision to rate driver-only operated (DOO) services as safe to the Transport Select Committee.
Louise Ellman MP, the head of the committee, repeatedly asked Bearfield if the fact that he had said that the operators will have to do a risk assessment of DOO meant it wasn’t completely safe.
But Bearfield said that the risk assessment was a “legal requirement” and “a responsibility that sits with the duty holder companies”.
“As far as we’re concerned, DOO is safe,” he added.

But earlier said

MPs also asked him why the RSSB had said in a March 2015 report that DOO was “only safety neutral if a range of mitigations were implemented” before issuing a recommendation, rather than a report, this year describing it as safe.
“I don’t think the statements are inconsistent,” Bearfield replied.

They are, at best, inconsistent.

repeatedly asked Bearfield if the fact that he had said that the operators will have to do a risk assessment of DOO meant it wasn’t completely safe.

Fishing statement trying to manipulate things,
This for instance
He added that, as with all methods of train dispatch, “suitably maintained equipment, proper procedures and competent, trained staff” must be in place.
Applies equally to a conductor/guard being in charge of the doors.
Anyone looking to implement a change or maintain an existing system should be conducting a risk assesment. It’s what tells you the level of Risk and Consequience of something failing and the mitigarion of such systems.
(Example would be a curved platform or a situation where visibility of every door was not possible, what systems would the door oprative (conductor in this case) have available to prevent an accident.
March 2015 report that DOO was “only safety neutral if a range of mitigations were implemented” before issuing a recommendation, rather than a report, this year describing it as safe.
Safety neutral as in so safer or no less safe than current practice.
Have those mitigations been implemented? Would they be similar to methods used to let the current staff know if doors are clear etc. or methods to detect a failure to close/obstruction?

And another day of guards sitting on thier fat arses eating toast whilst the rest of society gets in with doing a job.

Tosserz

I would assume the “mitigation” point is a suggestion that not all existing systems can remain unchanged while maintaining the same level of risk.

E.g. you couldn’t take some older rolling stock with no door cameras and run it on a line with curved platforms without installing door cameras.

When you change something in most business environments it’s perfectly normal to have to invest in some hardware or procedural change at the same time for the long term benefits to be realised.

The impact on the 300,000 (think that was the figure a few pages back) who use Southern every day (or don’t) and the knock on effect on those who don’t but are still impacted by business and travel disruption seems very disproportionate.

What is missing (and ought to be available) is a binding court or arbitration process where both sides can present expert evidence and reasoned legal and commercial arguments and a judgement is handed down complete with an appeals process. This is the way virtually all other commercial disputes are settled when there is deadlock. Why should this type of dispute be different and able to have knock on effects on paying customers and taxpayers?

Here you would get safety experts on both sides who could report on the nature of the stations served, the adequacy of the CCTV and “mitigations” for different routes and rolling stock, any special considerations around passenger risk for certain routes or services, the quality of the risk assessments, relevant comparisons with other TOCs etc.

I have no idea who is “right” on the arguments here but I do feel that punishing those with no say in the dispute is morally wrong.

Twenty two minutes late, escaped puma, Chessington North

And another day of guards sitting on thier fat arses eating toast whilst the rest of society gets in with doing a job.

Tosserz

Good point Binners.
Staying with the Perrin theme,
I think we’ve established that the only people against this glorious step forward are:
Wreckers of law and order. Communists, Maoists, Trotskyists, neo-Trotskyists, crypto-Trotskyists, union leaders, Communist union leaders, atheists, agnostics, long-haired weirdos, short-haired weirdos, vandals, hooligans, football supporters, namby-pamby probation officers, rapists, papists, papist rapists, foreign surgeons – headshrinkers, who ought to be locked up, Wedgwood Benn, keg bitter, punk rock, glue-sniffers, “Play For Today”, Clive Jenkins, Roy Jenkins, Up Jenkins, up everybody’s, Chinese restaurants – why do you think Windsor Castle is ringed with Chinese restaurants?

😆

I think thats what bikebouy was trying to say

E.g. you couldn’t take some older rolling stock with no door cameras and run it on a line with curved platforms without installing door cameras

Whilst that’s a valid point network-wide it’s not valid here, the trains that operate the vast majority of Southern services are so equipped.

Not just the guards striking today though BB, it’s the drivers AND the guards.

Careful lads, lets not wake the guards up out of thier slumber.

Right On, Right Up da Workaz

Have you not got the troops in yet?

Careful lads, lets not wake the guards up out of thier slumber.

Right On, Right Up da Workaz

Haven’t you got a train to catch?

So to me, it seems that today, Southern want to take away the responsibility of ‘pressing the button’ from the guards.

Is this worth striking over, on its own – No.

However, I think this is seen as a step towards rail companies eroding the role & responsibilities of manual staff and that from the unions perspective they have to draw the line somewhere and make a point of “who controls who” at some point and so they have chosen this point. Its highly visible and a mighty pain in the a**e and so there is an incentive to resolve it from all sides. This is the same as the tube unions have been doing for years.

I don’t particularly blame the Unions. They are doing what they do & quite frankly they don’t give a **** about anyone else. I do believe that their time is limited and that these roles will be automated at some point but not without a fight and probably not until we are the laughing stock of the world for having the most antiquated public transport system in the modern world.

Do the rail companies want to get rid of the guards on the trains eventually? probably. I don’t think we can blame them either. They are under pressure to reduce fairs and increase efficiency too.

I certainly don’t think nationalised industry is the way to go. The incentives are all wrong if you want a decent efficient service. That said. the current model is not right either.

The solution?? Not sure.

I do feel sorry for my fellow commuters stuffed in the middle of this turdfest of a battleground though. Good luck guys.

I do believe that their time is limited and that these roles will be automated at some point but not without a fight and probably not until we are the laughing stock of the world for having the most antiquated public transport system in the modern world.

Oh we’re aiming far far higher than that. We shall accept nothing less than the most antiquated, inefficient, and expensive public transport system in the modern or…. **** it….. even the third world.

And by the christ, we’re nearly there! But the shareholders are laughing their tits off so its all BRILLIAAAAAANT!!!!!

Pretty sure no one is laughing their tits off at the moment – except maybe the few at the Unions enjoying the power play.

Have you not got the troops in yet?

If only we hadn’t disbanded 79 railway squadron RCT…

I believe we got rid of the territorial army railway unit too

Pretty sure no one is laughing their tits off at the moment

Well the guys at Southern are still getting paid to provide a service, while delivering something thats a laughable parody of one, all while the taxpayer picks up the tab (again), so I reckon they’ll be allowing themselves at least a slight guffaw

Cheers!

Do the rail companies want to get rid of the guards on the trains eventually? probably. I don’t think we can blame them either. They are under pressure to reduce fairs and increase efficiency too.

while trying not to get sidetracked too much, we’re obsessed by a system that has created the mantra of “maximising profits and reducing costs” This is short hand/code for make sure the shareholders and owners get richer and richer at the expense of every-one else. we’ve become almost hypnotised into becoming the turkeys that vote for Xmas. This is NOT what this dispute is about though

The Unions are saying (quite rightly in my opinion) there is a safety issue on these types of trains operating as Driver only (comparing the trains that Southern operate to the Docklands Light Railway is a red herring) and that the offer to retain guards as train managers really only lasts the lifetime of this franchise (as once they aren’t guards they can be made redundant by the next franchise operators).

Unions, always **** things up by trying to look after the interests of their members, while at the same time daring to prioritise safety over profit, the bastards

We’ve had 20 years of a rail service, sold too cheaply to the private sector, asset stripped of land, buildings etc for profit, shareholder dividends, a doubling in the size of subsidy from the taxpayer, massive increases in fares over this period, and a service that can barely handle the increase in users, too little investment in the infrastructure which we were told that the main reason for privatisation was to access private capital, only the organisation(railtrack) turned out to be utter sh*t,back under Government control who now want to privatise it again.

I mean, who in their right mind would do this sort of thing again? Oh, hang on, Royal mail, sold too cheaply, with the main reason for privatisation was to access private capital, shareholder dividends taking £600 million out of it in three years, cuts to services…

And you people complain about unions?

Who is the enemy again?

The solution??

Ultimately, the solution is to find other jobs for the people displaced by this step towards automation. People who once did jobs like sticking labels on jam jars were made redundant by machines, and had to find work as sysadmins etc. We need to re-employ the guards in a useful way. Apparently we have a lack of carers for dementia sufferers, so maybe that is an obvious direction to look, given the guards’ experience in dealing with the problems of commuters?

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Well, Theresa May has promised to insist on workers’ reps on the board.

Oh, hang on a mo….

How about the Scandies?

You can’t replace trains with them, silly!

Erm… actually…..

And you lot of selfish strikers have been joined by another bunch of tosserz at Heathrow.

#1970’sbritaininthe21stcentury

Join the revolution comrade!!!!!

Don’t worry, bikebuoy, there’s more to come

#1930’sbritaininthe21stcentury

Who is right? the Germans with their co operative approach to industrial relations rather than the adversarial approach we have here.

Just as well we have Brexit to keep us safe from such forward thinking.

Personally, I think our unions are as much an obstacle to cooperative relations as the businesses themselves. There is a role for unions in our society, it just isn’t the role they are currently doing.

In this instance, I think that there are legitimate safety concerns due to the driver’s visibility (or lack thereof). Southern could address these, but aren’t doing so. The union could also work towards a good DOO solution, but would rather keep our railways in a mess.

I rather fancy binding pendulum arbitration to settle industrial disputes. It might stop everybody being quite so bloody minded about things.