Southern Rail strike – who is right?

Its a privately run train service. Its inevitable.

😯

Anyone got the obvious answer as to who is right – road users, sadly.

Its a privately run train service. Its inevitable.

As above, you agree they’re unnecessary then?

I think it’s really unfortunate that the news reporting does not report in an unbiased and fair way.

E.g. Soundbites are often taken out of context (to generate greater impact) and subsequently create a distorted and unhelpful view of the situation.

Doesn’t help the matter at all.

I’ve said this in the last Southern Rail thread we had..

But..

If the guards and drivers fail to turn up for work without a sick note covering the period, sack em’.

For damn sure in my industry we’re bound by those rules.

Tossers.

Anyone got the obvious answer as to who is right – road users, sadly.

Problem with driving is that all these bloody cyclists get in the way, overtake me whilst i sit in traffic and run redlights.

and they dont pay their road tax….b88stards

Be alright if they earned their money, like these boys do:

bikebouy – Member
I’ve said this in the last Southern Rail thread we had.

And any other time unions are mentioned.
Your agenda is pretty clear.

I sussed out ages ago that he was actually Iain Duncan Smith and I claimed my food bank voucher 😀

Did you get anything nice?

This thread really has helped me understand what’s going on.

The unions are going on strike because conductors are losing the door operation role.

The safety argument has long since been debunked, so why are the unions objecting to that?

Because it will (long term) cost their member’s jobs.

How do the unions know this change will cost jobs?

Because the unions think without the door opening role conductors are sometimes needless.

Ipso Facto the unions are ‘wrong’.

The safety argument has long since been debunked

I don’t believe that to be the case.

“the safety argument has long since been debunked”

Epic sweeping statement! debunked where…. in an ill informed thread on the internet, or in the ‘media’?

The devil as ever is in the detail, media is a great tool for swaying opinion without going through all that messy business of rationally evaluating evidence 😉

I don’t believe that to be the case.

I’m sure you’re very knowledgeable about rail safety but the Office of Rail Regulation probably trump your knowledge. Plus a third of the railways run without Conductors. Plus some railways run without drivers or conductors.

….and finally the Rail Unions are there to protect their members. They are not responsible for safety and if they were there would be a clear conflict of interest.

Good link 1

Older link[/url]

Which actually explain the issues and history of the dispute. 20 days of strikes only, the service has been terrible for more days than that!

I’m sure you’re very knowledgeable about rail safety but the Office of Rail Regulation probably trump your knowledge.

😀

Don’t forget eliminating the role of the conductors also limits the powers of the unions to call damaging strikes, as the trains will still be able to run without them. Obviously, Southern Rail couldn’t organise their way out of a wet tissue paper bag, but this is partly to do with the unions retaining their bargaining power.

The RSSB actually said:

Findings …“A review of the safety implications of DOO(P) indicated that there may be changes to the risk profile, in terms of the likelihood of events occurring, or the severity of their consequences. However, with the right technical and operational mitigations the analysis has considered the provision of DOO(P) to be safety neutral

The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.

Which actually explain the issues and history of the dispute. 20 days of strikes only, the service has been terrible for more days than that!

Yes, the service on strike days is generally better than normal days. It’s a skeleton service, but they run what they say they’ll run (broadly) when they say they’ll run it.

I don’t mind an infrequent service as long as it’s dependable. During the strikes last week they ran trains until after 22.00, which is fine by me.

they say they’ll run (broadly) when they say they’ll run it

No they don’t.

The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.

So why strike if Southern’s old stock isn’t allowed to have Driver only trains?

Clearly it *has* been deemed safe for Southern.

This thread definitely needs someone posting hilarious, irreverent pictures.

War by proxy

Have the guards been sacked yet?

Has your train turned up yet?

Ta Woppit:

The document also goes into considerable detail about Driver Only Operation (DOO) of trains, first agreed nationally in 1985.

Some of the arrangements on the practice agreed between the union and the management look almost comical: “If the conductor is left behind by driver error, the duty may run DOO until the conductor can be reunited with the service.” But the document demonstrates that the practice at the heart of the dispute has been running safely for decades.

Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.

Utter lunacy to suggest their stock isn’t designed for DOO!

they say they’ll run (broadly) when they say they’ll run it

No they don’t.[/quote]

I don’t know if that’s intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That’s far better than a ‘normal’ service day.

There is a lot of fat in the timetable, which helps, so slow station stops don’t really matter.

Well, have the guards been sacked yet ?

Tosserz.

I don’t know if that’s intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That’s far better than a ‘normal’ service day.

Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I’ve spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the “cancelled” notification spread across the board.

Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I’ve spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the “cancelled” notification spread across the board.

Fair enough, I’ve seen the odd one, but definitely a better service (proportionally) than non-strike days. I still try and WFH or use other routes though admittedly. The 5 day strike during the summer was a pleasure though – empty trains running as booked!

Just had a quick look at RecentTrainTimes; during the 3 day strike last week they cancelled one train in the evening peak on my route, and one was 30 minutes late, actually consecutive trains which was due to a signal problem at Purley, which is totally unrelated to the strike, and actually the reduced volume of trains would have helped.

Conversely on Friday they cancelled 2, and another was 28 minutes late. Yesterday they cancelled two, one was 37 minutes late and one was 58 minutes late. That’s out of 7 trains arriving between 1800 and 2200.

Scot rail agreed to keep guards or train conductors in their present role, the new trainsets are being modified to allow the above to work the doors.

and a few years ago in Liverpool a Guard was sent to prison after a young girl fell between the train and platform interface at James street station, and another case is pending for another guard, despite the guard being on the same side of the train as the passenger on the platform, some stations have the platform on the opposite side, guards are now instructed to leave the train and check the doors are clear before reboaring the train and closing the doors, and finally checking doors again before Right away is signalled to the driver, and most of our trains are only 3 car not 12 cars like down south for the masses, all observed via small cctv monitors on the platform end.

njee20 – Member
Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.

I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes), I assumed it was being implemented as old stock was being phased out, hence why it’s happening now. Which throws up another question, if they’ve been running DOO on other routes for years why are they changing existing guard services on other routes now?

I haven’t had a chance to read all of this yet (i will later) so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but as a Southern customer previously and for 7 years i’ve seen the conductors carry out various other duties other than shut the doors including:

Sell/check tickets
Customer enquiries about connections etc.
Assist disabled customers on and off trains
Provide first aid
Call the police and assist them following an assault of a passenger
Remove drunken/abusive passengers from the trains.

I don’t think that drivers could manage any of these whilst also driving the train, so in my opinion conductors should remain and hence i think Southern are in the wrong.

SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.

Calm down, like i said i haven’t had the chance to read it all yet, i’m sure this thread will let me know why every media outlet is reporting that they are then.

SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.

hmmm, but they’re not promising that they’ll continue to be guards either.

They’re promising no redundancies for a given period, no pay cuts, and every train which currently has a guard to continue having an on board safety person.

Virgin doesn’t have guards. They have train managers. What makes a guard a guard? Dispatching the train? They don’t do that in major stations. Were they not guards before automatic doors?