[Closed] Southern Rail strike - who is right?

You're the joke that just keeps on giving aren't you?

I do try....

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If the rails are clear, could you not improvise and take advantage. No imagination you southerners. Mollycoddled, see....

Unions are using the strike to draw a line in the sand regarding single operator trains, as they see an erosion of their members jobs, that's their function.

Southern trains get paid regardless, so are effectively being used by DfT as patsies to try to break union, they will paint this as union intransigence regardless of what is actuallygoing on behind the scenes, as it's in their interest to have hoards of disgruntled passengers mouthing off.

Could have been resolved, neither side has an interest in seeing that happen . Passengers caught in the middle

- Southern/Thameslink is run on the basis of "we, the government, will pay you to run this franchise, we will keep all profits".

As such, there is precisely zero incentive for Southern to back down, compromise, or indeed actually run a single train. However, they cannot be accused of putting profits first!

Me too.

Went through the selection process for a job as a train 'manager' for Virgin a good while ago.
Very well paid, but a commensurate level of responsibility in emergencies.

All of the people who were selected at the end of the second day were ex forces, police or emergency services.

It's not just collecting tickets.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said on Wednesday its ScotRail members had voted by 10 to one to accept a revised offer from ScotRail Alliance where drivers will open train doors, but conductors will oversee closing them.

Southern has threatened to sack its conductors unless the RMT accepts the terms of its eight-point offer by Thursday, which would change the role of conductors to “onboard supervisors”, paying them a £2,000 bonus to accept the change.

Mick Cash, the general secretary of the RMT, said he believed the deal with ScotRail Alliance could be a model for a settlement with Southern.

On Tuesday, the RMT said Southern had rejected an attempt to start talks on the issue at the conciliation service Acas, and the firm was insisting it would only hold talks on implementing the driver-only operated trains policy.

“Our members have backed a deal in a referendum ballot that is a major victory in the fight to stop the compromising of rail safety through the extension of driver-only operation,” Cash said.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/05/scotrail-dispute-resolved-staff-accept-deal-guards-southern-rmt

I have no issues with Unions taking up specific fights or cases, but fighting against progress is never going to be winner.

For those that think Arriva in South Wales are bad do you not remember when it BR, complete sh*te.

nah, cos I'm not old.

Yes, yes, but thats not in the epicentre of the whole ****ing universe South East, is it? So nobody cares

hahaha too right! Forgot i'll eff off then

Well, no, that just shows total ignorance of what's actually going on, and that's the problem. This isn't just "slightly ropey service lol".

Take Wrexham, town of 61,000 people. ATW station, with an estimated annual entries/exits of 537,962. Current departures shows two trains being 2 minutes late, everything else on time. Doesn't sound like a bad service to me?

Horsham, population of 56,000. Southern station, with an estimated annual entries/exits of 2,841,200. Next train due to depart Thursday morning. About 1/4 of these will be cancelled. Then there are none at all on Friday again.

If theres no trains on Friday, then why not just go to the pub for the afternoon? You sound like you could definitely benefit from an afternoon in the pub. Go mad... call in the bookies and put a few bets on, on the way there. Then maybe a fight outside the kebab house later, on the way home?

Do they have bookies or kebab houses in Horsham? I bet theres loads in Wrexham. I bet the kebab shops do cheesy chips too. Mmmmmmm.... cheesy chips

come for a ride tonight, you can pretend it's The North, sky is certainly grim enough...

I'd prefer to have someone other than the driver on the train in an emergency

Seriously why? What's one person going to do that can't be done by automated systems and the people on the train?

If theres no trains on Friday, then why not just go to the pub for the afternoon? You sound like you could definitely benefit from an afternoon in the pub. Go mad... call in the bookies and put a few bets on, on the way there. Then maybe a fight outside the kebab house later, on the way home?

Mrs njee20 is 9 months pregnant, pub isn't a popular option right now, nor is my inability to get home when required!

Seriously why? What's one person going to do that can't be done by automated systems and the people on the train?

This. What about all the services that are currently unstaffed? Are they less safe? Do you always check before you board a train that there's someone else on board? How often have you needed them?

come for a ride tonight, you can pretend it's The North, sky is certainly grim enough...

That's actually very tempting! Already have plans though cheers - capitalising on being home at a sensible hour for once!

So if someone in a toilet pulls the distress cord it stops and the driver deals with it? Who puts ou the wheelchair ramps at unmanned stations?

Someone like this?
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Saying that, the sun's come out now. 8)

Have the guards been sacked yet?

It's all I'm (and many hundreds of thousands) of Southern Train users are interested in.

Tossers.

Mrs njee20 is 9 months pregnant, pub isn't a popular option right now, nor is my inability to get home when required!

Pfft! Amateur!! Is this your first? everyone knows that theres nothing a pregnant woman appreciates more than being brought a kebab in the early hours. Bring cheesy chips too, delivered with the immortal line "d'ya know wha? I fuggin' love you, you fugger!...." and you'll be elevated to hero status on Mumsnet!

Trust me on this. ..... Its a win/win for everyone involved. The guards of Southern Rail have handed you a golden opportunity, yet you casually spurn it? You sir are a fool! And an ungrateful fool, at that!

So if someone in a toilet pulls the distress cord it stops and the driver deals with it? Who puts ou the wheelchair ramps at unmanned stations?

In which case the Conductor's job is essential and therefore safe whether he controls the doors or not. Which makes it fairly hard to understand what the fuss is about.

So we can have driverless cars, but trains? No way too many variables with a train, on tracks....

Trust me on this. ..... Its a win/win for everyone involved. The guards of Southern Rail have handed you a golden opportunity, yet you casually spurn it? You sir are a fool! And an ungrateful fool, at that!

😆 well done, I'll give you that!

Have the guards been sacked yet?

It's all I'm (and many hundreds of thousands) of Southern Train users are interested in.

They were told they will all have their contracts terminated on 1st January, although there is a new contract waiting for them if they wish. I don't know if there's been any more on that though.

Trust me on this. ..... Its a win/win for everyone involved. The guards of Southern Rail have handed you a golden opportunity, yet you casually spurn it? You sir are a fool! And an ungrateful fool, at that!

😆 well done, I'll give you that!

Have the guards been sacked yet?

It's all I'm (and many hundreds of thousands) of Southern Train users are interested in.

They were told they will all have their contracts terminated on 1st January, although there is a new contract waiting for them if they wish. I don't know if there's been any more on that though.

With the increase in passenger numbers and simultaneous fare increases over the past 10 years it's incredible that the operating companies can't still make a profit / need to make people redundant.

This must be costing some big businesses in London as their personnel can't get in, surely they can ask their mates in government to sort it out?

What about all the services that are currently unstaffed? Are they less safe?

Yes.

I know of two suicides locally at unmanned stations.
Personally I've had to restrain an incredibly drunk woman who wanted to do the same and work with a chap who witnessed a young drunk girl, larking about, fall in front of a train before he could get to her.

I was on my own, but the incident my colleague witnessed had lots of bystanders, none of which attempted to intervene before it was too late.

With the increase in passenger numbers and simultaneous fare increases over the past 10 years it's incredible that the operating companies can't still make a profit / need to make people redundant.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. Jesus wept.

put up them fences that open when the trains in the station. Simples. Sure they have them in London somewhere.

I know of two suicides locally at unmanned stations.
Personally I've had to restrain an incredibly drunk woman who wanted to do the same and work with a chap who witnessed a young drunk girl, larking about, fall in front of a train before he could get to her.

I was on my own, but the incident my colleague witnessed had lots of bystanders, none of which attempted to intervene before it was too late.

But we're not talking about unmanned stations, we're talking about having someone on the train who no longer pushes a button. The argument being that eventually he won't be there at all, which is speculation, but given a long enough time frame probably accurate. Stations are something else entirely.

Civil airliners used to have at least 3 people on the flight deck, are they less safe now they only have 2?

Have you ever thought of moving to Wrexham? Its lovely this time of year? And a lot less stressful by the sounds of things

They don't just push buttons.
As others have explained.

You're obviously very angry about this and I can completely understand why.

But, you're currently unwilling to accept that any other view apart from your own has any validity.

Debate is impossible.
Enjoy your day.

I wasn't responding to the downgrading of the role, I was responding to the notion if having no manning at all.

They don't just push buttons.
As others have explained.

I'd wholly agree with you, if this were about getting rid of the guards on trains. It isn't. We can argue all day about whether moving to driver-operated doors is the first step to getting rid of them, but that's not what is being proposed. Indeed they're guaranteeing that won't happen for a period, which is an assurance very few of us can enjoy.

The reality is that on-board safety personnel or whatever will probably become superfluous at some point. As will the drivers. As will lorry drivers, and production line workers and shop staff and so on and so on.

There is a lot of 'whatabouttery' going on, which is largely peripheral.

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Well if all the predictions about the future were correct we wouldn't have doubled the people using trains, as has happened, as I thought we were all supposed to be remote-working by now, anyway?
[b]
And where's my hoverboard? Where eh? Answer me that?!!! We should all be on hoverboards!! Not bloody trains!!!! Pah!!![/b]

Precisely. So why are people trying to predict that this is the first step to making on board staff redundant?

....basic economics I guess. Step 1, downgrade the role/remove responsibilities so you can use cheaper staff. Step 2, remove role.

The single most valid point I've seen so far is the wheelchair ramp argument. Pretty much all the others you can mitigate....

I was in a train crash in March of this year, on a train staffed by a driver (obvs!) and a guard. Following the crash the guard was beyond useless despite being at the rear of the train when the impact happened and was seemingly unhurt, unlike those of us in the front carriage that took the brunt of the impact. The inquiry into the crash deemed that Network rail were at fault for telling the tractor driver to cross an unmanned crossing and also that the driver had the train 40mph [b]above[/b] what it should have been doing when going across the crossing.

Similarly, I was on a train last year going between London and Hastings and a lady opposite me started having a seizure. Despite pressing the intercom to talk to the driver (who ignored us and kept going) and getting the guard (who had no first aid training, no understanding of what to do and no process to follow in the event of a passenger being taken seriously ill), it took three stations before the driver finally stopped, at which point I called the emergency services as the guard refused to (W the actual F!).

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner they automate the whole flipping train system the better. Guards on trains serve no purpose whatsoever apart from checking tickets after leaving Cannon ST, which is a pointless exercise anyway as its all automated barriers.

Between them, the rail companies, the unions, network rail and the government have managed to create a transport 'system' that isn't anywhere near fit for purpose. Following the crash, I've not been on a train since (I've done nearly 6k commuting on the bike though - win) and I'll not be going on another for a long while. I pity two of the blokes who work for me though - £4k season ticket and it took one of them 3 hours to get in this morning from Paddock Wood....which is the norm at the moment

My station has London midland, virgin and Southern trains all going to London.
Fortunately I use London midland or virgin, fortunately because even when they are not on strike the Southern trains seem to be delayed more often than the others even though they use the same track for part of the journey.
The other 2 companies seen to run a better service with guards etc.
Yesterday there was an I'll passenger emergency and a request for any medics on board to help from the guard, so they are kept busy, there's also a couple of blind people on my train who commute regularly and they help them on and off and arrange for station staff to meet them off as well as wheelchair users. All of this on very busy standing room only commuter trains.

Jobs are changing, automation is a big upheaval, eg less checkout staff these days, but some jobs are still essential.

Southern seem to have a lot of problems, I'm not sure reducing staff is the solution.

The single most valid point I've seen so far is the wheelchair ramp argument. Pretty much all the others you can mitigate....

Yes, I'd agree with that. I've seen proposals for passengers helping and what not, which does seem far fetched!

Southern seem to have a lot of problems, I'm not sure reducing staff is the solution.

Good job they're not actually doing that then, isn't it? 😉

Good job they're not actually doing that then

Is that the sound of speculation I hear?!

I'll laugh if Southern are the last TOC with on board staff because they've been forced into it by the union whilst every other operator just quietly gets rid of them!

I'll laugh if Southern are the last TOC with on board staff because they've been forced into it by the union whilst every other operator just quietly gets rid of them!

youd laugh at people losing their jobs ? 😯

"yet....."

In which case the jobs by definition can't be essential.

Is that the sound of speculation I hear?!

Its a privately run train service. Its inevitable.

Its a privately run train service. Its inevitable.

😯

Anyone got the obvious answer as to who is right - road users, sadly.

Its a privately run train service. Its inevitable.

As above, you agree they're unnecessary then?

I think it's really unfortunate that the news reporting does not report in an unbiased and fair way.

E.g. Soundbites are often taken out of context (to generate greater impact) and subsequently create a distorted and unhelpful view of the situation.

Doesn't help the matter at all.

I've said this in the last Southern Rail thread we had..

But..

If the guards and drivers fail to turn up for work without a sick note covering the period, sack em'.

For damn sure in my industry we're bound by those rules.

Tossers.

Anyone got the obvious answer as to who is right - road users, sadly.

Problem with driving is that all these bloody cyclists get in the way, overtake me whilst i sit in traffic and run redlights.

and they dont pay their road tax....b88stards

Be alright if they earned their money, like these boys do:

bikebouy - Member
I've said this in the last Southern Rail thread we had.

And any other time unions are mentioned.
Your agenda is pretty clear.

I sussed out ages ago that he was actually Iain Duncan Smith and I claimed my food bank voucher 😀

Did you get anything nice?

This thread really has helped me understand what's going on.

The unions are going on strike because conductors are losing the door operation role.

The safety argument has long since been debunked, so why are the unions objecting to that?

Because it will (long term) cost their member's jobs.

How do the unions know this change will cost jobs?

Because the unions think without the door opening role conductors are sometimes needless.

Ipso Facto the unions are 'wrong'.

The safety argument has long since been debunked

I don't believe that to be the case.

"the safety argument has long since been debunked"

Epic sweeping statement! debunked where.... in an ill informed thread on the internet, or in the 'media'?

The devil as ever is in the detail, media is a great tool for swaying opinion without going through all that messy business of rationally evaluating evidence 😉

I don't believe that to be the case.

I'm sure you're very knowledgeable about rail safety but the Office of Rail Regulation probably trump your knowledge. Plus a third of the railways run without Conductors. Plus some railways run without drivers or conductors.

....and finally the Rail Unions are there to protect their members. They are not responsible for safety and if they were there would be a clear conflict of interest.

[url= https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-secretary-misleads-passengers-1371dd775ab0#.9eebgbd51 ]Good link 1[/url]

[url= http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/railway-roulette/ ]Older link[/url]

Which actually explain the issues and history of the dispute. 20 days of strikes only, the service has been terrible for more days than that!

I'm sure you're very knowledgeable about rail safety but the Office of Rail Regulation probably trump your knowledge.

😀

Don't forget eliminating the role of the conductors also limits the powers of the unions to call damaging strikes, as the trains will still be able to run without them. Obviously, Southern Rail couldn't organise their way out of a wet tissue paper bag, but this is partly to do with the unions retaining their bargaining power.

The RSSB actually said:

Findings …“A review of the safety implications of DOO(P) indicated that there may be changes to the risk profile, in terms of the likelihood of events occurring, or the severity of their consequences. [b]However, with the right technical and operational mitigations the analysis has considered the provision of DOO(P) to be safety neutral[/b]

The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.

Which actually explain the issues and history of the dispute. 20 days of strikes only, the service has been terrible for more days than that!

Yes, the service on strike days is generally better than normal days. It's a skeleton service, but they run what they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it.

I don't mind an infrequent service as long as it's dependable. During the strikes last week they ran trains until after 22.00, which is fine by me.

they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it

No they don't.

The issue is the new stock is made for DOO. The older stock that southern uses is not.

So why strike if Southern's old stock isn't allowed to have Driver only trains?

Clearly it *has* been deemed safe for Southern.

This thread definitely needs someone posting hilarious, irreverent pictures.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/southern-rail-strike-why-has-it-happened-explained-london-trains-doors-dispute-a7471381.html ]War by proxy[/url]

Have the guards been sacked yet?

Has your train turned up yet?

Ta Woppit:

The document also goes into considerable detail about Driver Only Operation (DOO) of trains, first agreed nationally in 1985.

Some of the arrangements on the practice agreed between the union and the management look almost comical: “If the conductor is left behind by driver error, the duty may run DOO until the conductor can be reunited with the service.” But the document demonstrates that the practice at the heart of the dispute has been running safely for decades.

Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.

Utter lunacy to suggest their stock isn't designed for DOO!

they say they'll run (broadly) when they say they'll run it

No they don't.

I don't know if that's intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That's far better than a 'normal' service day.

There is a lot of fat in the timetable, which helps, so slow station stops don't really matter.

Well, have the guards been sacked yet ?

Tosserz.

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I don't know if that's intentional selective quoting, but they broadly do. They publish a strike time table, and they broadly run it. Last week was a bit shit for other infrastructure reasons, but last Tuesday I was on time arriving at Victoria, and only 10 minutes late on the way home. That's far better than a 'normal' service day.

Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I've spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the "cancelled" notification spread across the board.

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Nope, not even close. Trains are cancelled left right and centre on strike days. I've spent plenty of time waiting on Victoria station watching the "cancelled" notification spread across the board.

Fair enough, I've seen the odd one, but definitely a better service (proportionally) than non-strike days. I still try and WFH or use other routes though admittedly. The 5 day strike during the summer was a pleasure though - empty trains running as booked!

Just had a quick look at RecentTrainTimes; during the 3 day strike last week they cancelled one train in the evening peak on my route, and one was 30 minutes late, actually consecutive trains which was due to a signal problem at Purley, which is totally unrelated to the strike, and actually the reduced volume of trains would have helped.

Conversely on Friday they cancelled 2, and another was 28 minutes late. Yesterday they cancelled two, one was 37 minutes late and one was 58 minutes late. That's out of 7 trains arriving between 1800 and 2200.

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Scot rail agreed to keep guards or train conductors in their present role, the new trainsets are being modified to allow the above to work the doors.

and a few years ago in Liverpool a Guard was sent to prison after a young girl fell between the train and platform interface at James street station, and another case is pending for another guard, despite the guard being on the same side of the train as the passenger on the platform, some stations have the platform on the opposite side, guards are now instructed to leave the train and check the doors are clear before reboaring the train and closing the doors, and finally checking doors again before Right away is signalled to the driver, and most of our trains are only 3 car not 12 cars like down south for the masses, all observed via small cctv monitors on the platform end.

njee20 - Member
Southern Electrostars are, of course, equipped for DOO. They have operated as driver only for years on the route to East Grinstead, and have been for some months on other routes.

I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes), I assumed it was being implemented as old stock was being phased out, hence why it's happening now. Which throws up another question, if they've been running DOO on other routes for years why are they changing existing guard services on other routes now?

I haven't had a chance to read all of this yet (i will later) so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but as a Southern customer previously and for 7 years i've seen the conductors carry out various other duties other than shut the doors including:

Sell/check tickets
Customer enquiries about connections etc.
Assist disabled customers on and off trains
Provide first aid
Call the police and assist them following an assault of a passenger
Remove drunken/abusive passengers from the trains.

I don't think that drivers could manage any of these whilst also driving the train, so in my opinion conductors should remain and hence i think Southern are in the wrong.

SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.

Calm down, like i said i haven't had the chance to read it all yet, i'm sure this thread will let me know why every media outlet is reporting that they are then.

SOUTHERN ARE NOT PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE GUARDS.

hmmm, but they're not promising that they'll continue to be guards either.

They're promising no redundancies for a given period, no pay cuts, and every train which currently has a guard to continue having an on board safety person.

Virgin doesn't have guards. They have train managers. What makes a guard a guard? Dispatching the train? They don't do that in major stations. Were they not guards before automatic doors?

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