something for the veggies to chew on………..

STWer in spectacular missing the point shocker….

STWer in spectacular feeding the troll shocker 😉

But seriously, we, human beings, don't need to eat meat, fish, spam or any other animal products to live a long and healthy life, as has been proven by thousands of people.

Eat meat if you like it, go ahead. You don't need to, but if you don't see that it's needlessly cruel and wasteful, chow down, I won't judge. 😀

STWer in spectacular feeding the troll shocker

Yeah, sorry, I'm normally pretty good at trip-trapping past their posts.

I can easily see why vegetarians get defensive about having to deal with us meat eaters – they generally get a raw deal when we focus our attention on them.

However, with most vegetarians I think that there is generally something lacking – for example mint sauce or horseraddish – in order to bring out the very best in them.

Literally consuming the body of another animal to gain its strength.

Eating meat rules.

The programme was about the benefits of cooking food, not just meat-eating. It reckoned that our brains grew bigger once we started cooking.

I like the fact that modern day civilisation started when we invented beer. You can't brew beer if you're a nomad, so everybody had to stop in one place and start growing wheat.

Did I 'lift it from somewhere ' ? er ….
pay more attention at the back .
That came right after my 'who should we execute ….' thread reply .

It's the caffiene .

We're just all too bloody clever for our own good .
If one or two of us in relative isolation make a decision to live /eat / dress a certain way , then I suppose that's OK .
But , I'm worried that if some idea that is basically not dead good for the whole , takes hold , then as a species our goose could be cooked .
I've seen every argument there is for veggie , vegan , carnivore , omnivore , the lot .
I have done extensive research , over many years .
I'm tired now .
Take our time here as a species .
we lived a certain way for a very very long time .
We positively thrived that way . Animal fat was the single biggest factor in this species surviving the harsh winters before Ant + Dec.
Then .
In the last ten seconds , relatively speaking , 'experts ' tell us to do this /that/t'other .
They dont reeeeally know .
There hasnt been enough time elapsed to really know the outcome.

I dont know .

I'm fairly certain of this though . Before morals /conscience / whatever was 'invented ' we ate opportunistically . We are basically a predator . But a lazy one . We'd have settled for roadkill .

Now we have a choice . It's delivered to the door . We are influenced by external pressures to live /eat / listen / love /drive / illuminate/televise/ communicate , a certain way .

They dont really know what's best .

Time will tell .

Regardless of what/ how we eat , I think the biggest problem is that we have lost the direct connection with our food .

Just maybe ,vegetarianism is the next big evolutionary leap .
I hope not .
I enjoy a nice medium rare steak . Finest.
But today , I had a salad for lunch .I enjoyed that too.
In between I munched some nuts .
And one of them 'Caramel ' bars .
8 Million sold every week .

What we eat is dictated by capitalism . You just think youre choosing.

Eat meat if you like it, go ahead. You don't need to, but if you don't see that it's needlessly cruel and wasteful, chow down, I won't judge.

In what way is it wasteful? Pretty much all of an animal is used in some way or another. Leather, for example, is a very durable material, with a great many uses. There are no real alternatives that have all the advantages of leather, and it's effectively an infinitly renewable resource. Most, if not all, alternatives are synthetics derived from petrochemicals, which are a finite resource, and not at all durable. Then there's wool…
Oh yeah, and bones are rendered into gelatine. I eat some meat, but not much, mainly because texture and flavour puts me off, but that's true of various vegetables too. Given the knowledge and tools I could kill and eat my own food, but most would be fish and fowl. And I'd do it without guilt. My attitude is that of First Nations people, to have respect for what you take, and to not be wasteful.

In what way is it wasteful?

It's all to do with the position you occupy in a food chain. The higher up in the food chain you go, the more energy is wasted. This is because not all the energy consumed by an organism is available for consumption by those higher up the food chain. By positioning yourself lower down the food chain (though, as humans, we're still at the top) less energy is pissed away by fat cows burping their way through the day.

(Please excuse my shaky grasp of ecology, but I think the main points are there.)

There is also the issue of the not-small difference in the amount of water needed to produce a animal compared to the amount needed to grow a sack of spuds.

In a seperate issue, do those that eat meat really, really, REALLY see nothing wrong with killing a sentient being when you don't need to?

I can see plenty of things wrong with it. But not enough to stop me doing it.

In a seperate issue, do those that eat meat really, really, REALLY see nothing wrong with killing a sentient being when you don't need to?

And there you have it – some people do, some people don't. I didn't used to, but the more I chew (sorry) over the concept in my head, the harder I find it to justify forcing pregnancy on an animal in order to make it produce milk for us (instead of its young), then taking the young away and "raising" them in order to one day, say, "hey ho, moo cow, you're meat now!".

That and the ready availability of other sources of protein that won't be hanging around my colon for the next year or so, mean that my meat consumption is miniscule now and I suspect that the longer I think about it, the closer I'll get to consuming line caught fish only.

It is a great STW tradition to criticise non meat eaters [vegan myself] for our choices. I have yet to see a thread us questioning the meat eater habits.
Did like the bingo and heard it all before.

My view is much like sfb I dont want to kill things [granted tasty things] to stay alive and dont need to do this so I choose not to. I think it is a better way to live but accept each person can make their own choice and I care not one jot what you eat or what you consume. Health wise you could be an ominivore and be healthy or unhealthy and the same applies to veggies and vegans. I would note we have a minimum number of fruit and veg to eat per day and not one for meat….suggesting one is more necessary than the other.

My favourite incident was being questioned about indoctrinating my kids to my world view by refusing to let them eat meat and deciding there dietary habits….this came for a devout Muslim man who sent his children to Islamic school, the mosque for 2 hours a day and 5 hours at the weekend and made both his children memories the Quaran …the irony. When people say let them eat meat and decide I suggest they let their kids smoke fags and then decide to quit later if they want 😉

There are some pious non meat eaters who dont realy help persuade anyone of anything except that some non meat eaters are knobs.

deadlydarcy – Member
…That and the ready availability of other sources of protein that won't be hanging around my colon for the next year or so…

That sounds spurious – I don't eat much meat, but my belly would be the size of a tank if it was retaining certain proteins for a year or so.

Sounds like something dreamt up by a enema enthusiast.

" I would note we have a minimum number of fruit and veg to eat per day and not one for meat….suggesting one is more necessary than the other."

Or perhaps one is less popular than the other so there's a need to attempt to modify diets accordingly?

Perhaps it is because the World Health Organisation has recommended that we eat a minimum of 400g of fruit an veg to reduce the risk of serious health problems like heart attacks, strokes, obestiy Type 2 diabetes
Diet is linked to 1/3 of all cancers and after NOT smoking eating more fruit/veg is the singlest best thing to do to reduce this risk.
Whatever your dietary choices the evidence is not really in dispute as to the benefits of eating more fruit /veg and iirc reducing your intake of red meant in particular.

…That and the ready availability of other sources of protein that won't be hanging around my colon for the next year or so…

our guts will digest most of what we eat, bar cellulose (grass, wood etc) which we're not suited to and have no appetite for, but even the things we're not able to digest are carried through to the far end unless a) they can swim upstream b) they are spiky and get stuck. All this talk about impacted wossnames in the gut is tosh

Whatever your dietary choices the evidence is not really in dispute as top the benefits of eating more fruit /veg and iirc reducing your intake of red meant in particular.

Quite true.
But it made me think of countries where fruit and vegetables are (or at least I imagine they are) a scarcity.
Iceland was the first that sprung to mind, so I googled their life expectancy and to my surprise found it was the 3rd highest in the world.
So I'm guessing there's a bit more involved in staying healthy than eating lots of fresh fruit and veg.
Now I'm not for one moment attempting to infer from this that therefore eating triple cheeseburgers for breakfast, lunch and dinner would thus be a healthy option, but just wondering how countries such as Iceland fit into the fresh fruit and veg mantra?

Do you think Iceland imports all its fruit and veg?
Clearly excercise and other factors are important in heath /life expectancy

sfb and epicyclo, fight it put with the pious ones. My choice is, like Junkyard's, purely personal and my choice in reducing my red meat consumption is primarily because I can't zero my liking for a steak with killing an animal (or having someone else do it for me). The chances that it will reduce my risk of wearing a colostomy bag later in life is a fortunate side effect. Of course, the fact that I was stupid enough to smoke for years may have already rolled the dice for me.

Throw off the shackles of timid Christianity and quit this hubris. Asceticism went out with the monks; hair shirts and divinely ordained eating plans dividing sacred and immoral foods.

The moment a cow clip clops out a question about what tyres for their 29er is the moment I'll reconsider the 'cruelty' of farming tasty din-dins. Until then, yes, i think i will chow down. Yum.

The moment a cow clip clops out a question about what tyres for their 29er is the moment I'll reconsider the 'cruelty'

this handy criterion also allows you to eat babies and non English speakers

yawwwn… Just get stopped by this one:

whereas I'm veggie and far healthier (in body at least) than most people

Too what I reply. I am not a veggie I eat meat and I am far healthier than you (and therefore than most people).

puwned.

this handy criterion also allows you to eat babies and non English speakers

Thank goodness for farming; it'd be an awful decision to make. Babies tend to be plumper. With the obvious exceptions of Americans and Germans, clearly.

eat babies

Actually, that reminds me of one of my favourite films, Dumplings – more a rumination on femininity and beauty but grand stuff nonetheless.

I am far healthier than you (and therefore than most people).

I'm going on the fact that most people get ill but I don't, but perhaps you have some other measure involving digging or rights of way observance ?

Do you think Iceland imports all its fruit and veg?
Pretty much yes. Although it's got agriculture it would appear to be sheep and dairy based.
So the question is, do they (and have they always) import vast amounts of it, or are other factors far more important in ultimately determining health?
This isn't meant to be antagonistic, I'm genuinely interested in what the research indicates.

I'm going on the fact that most people get ill but I don't, but perhaps you have some other measure involving digging or rights of way observance ?

The fact that I don't get ill too. The fact that I am not as fat, that I don't drink alcohol (not even the odd one like you do) and much more.

I can't be arsed reading everything or watching the program. Was the consensus that vegetarians have higher IQ's because intelligent people are more likely to a) hang round in vegetarian circles and b) be more likely to actually think about what they're eating or was it some bollocks about no meat making you cleverer?

edit: just to clarify, if it's the latter then it's bollocks.

No way would a baby fit in my George Foreman grill.

*fires up the bbq*

Oh, another 'study' determining that living in the dark ages is the way to go. 🙄

I mean, seriously – so what if eating meat did help our brains to get bigger? Now we have constant food sources, we can (if we can be bothered) eat well balanced diets at all times of the year. Maybe our brains would've got even more huge if those prehistoric men were taken out of the caves and put straight onto a 21st century vegan diet.

I can't be doing with ANY of this 'it is/is not natural to eat meat. Then it isn't natural to live until 90, in constantly heated houses, to freeze food, to use insulin if you are diabetic…..etc etc

As humans (in the world as it is right now) we have the ability to make choices for the better and to minimise suffering. I never understand why some meat eaters get so offended by veggies/vegans. What's so bad about being compassionate?

So the question is, do they (and have they always) import vast amounts of it, or are other factors far more important in ultimately determining health?

Well not until modern infrastructures were established but that is presumably when the life expectancy rose.
TBH I dont know either but of course other factors are important in terms of health, genetic factors- predispositon, environment, excercise etc.
Despite all of this diet is probably the thing that each individual has the most control over and hence why this is stressed. It is clearly implicate din improving health

the best nutrition advice on what to eat is relatively straightforward: Eat a plant-based diet rich in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains; choose healthy fats, like olive and canola oil; and eat red meat and unhealthy fats, like saturated and trans fats, sparingly.

Harvard school of Public Health

Even on STW we will be very lucky if the hive mind throws up an expert on Icelandic life expectancy and diet.

What's so bad about being compassionate?

it's not considered manly 🙁

littlegirlbunny – Member
I never understand why some meat eaters get so offended by veggies/vegans. What's so bad about being compassionate?

+ 1 what littelgirlbunny said.

As a meat eater I cannot understand why my fellow carnivores feel the need to give veggies a hard time. I also cannot understand why veggies feel the need to give meat eaters a hard time. I have no problem with you being compassionate, as long as I don't have to be. Like I said before there is only one reason in our ,modern western society to eat meat, because you like it.

^^^thats not true. certainly is this country anyway,the main factor is cost your average family cannot see past the cost of fresh food be it fruit veggie or meat.
most families no they can have a take out for £20
most family s. also no they can provide a healthy balanced meal for £20 also.

but the later takes time and effort and as the breakdown of family mealtimes continues,more and more children eat what there given be it wrong or right.
most but not all of these children, cant cook, don't no what a healthy meal consist of, and when a healthy meal is put in front of them it looks strange and unappetising.

also if you live in europe ive also found that not eating meal is quite normal,and not regarded as being weird.but if you don't like fish people do look at you in a different manner.

i sometimes wonder if our eating habits arnt more controlled by americas dominance in cheep food than what we as a country choose to buy.

21st century vegan diet.

15th century piety? No thanks. Get thee to a nunnery!

Whether you 'choose ' one way to eat or another , it's like this .
The human body is extremely complex .
We/they ( whoever 'they ' are ) can only really best guess what's going on in there.
You might 'feel ' better 'choosing' to eat leaves . If you feel better then I'm happy for you . There's some value in feeling good .
But youre obviously clouded by emotions .
Fueling the body shouldnt be emotive .

I feel good just having a fairly balanced diet .
I eat meat . Sometimes red , sometimes light . Some fish . Some veg . Some fruit .
I dont drink alcohol .
I dont drink milk . ( Although lately I'm slipping up on that a bit )
I do drink coffee . probably too much .
But I also am partial to herbal 'tea ' .
I drink lots of water .

I feel OK .
I'm 41 .
i work in construction . The sharp end . I do OK .
What's the problem ?

Rather than obsessing over being , say , herbivore , or carnivore , or omnivore , we should take more time to get connected with what we eat .The quality of it .
I did say above , I think , that meat was vital in our development . Animal fat was what saw us through harsh winters .
You can argue that these days that's irrelevant , maybe it is , but today I'm certain that all our foods are tainted by capitalist agenda.
meat is intensively farmed . Pumped with steroids / anti biotics etc .
Milk , a handy bi-product is similarly processed . Dairy products find their way into a myriad products .
Plant crops are farmed with equal zeal to maximise profit. They dont tell us everything that they GM .

Do you really think a product , sold at Tescoburys , with a little green ' V' on the packet , Low fat this , Low salt the other , is really a healthy 'choice ' to make .

We all need to get used to it though . Dont we ?

Organic food is all well and good . Before it was 'invented ' as a clever ' choice ' that was how all ordinary food was , wasnt it ?
You know ? A bit back ? My grandparents had a pen out the back . Rabbits , chickens , greens .

So it's simple .

We'll all of us go organic , eh ?
organic meat is fantastically good for you . have you tasted organic chicken ? Lovely . Dont confuse taste or satisfaction with nutrition though . That's something else .
Nutritionally organic vs non organic is neither here nor there.
Not your thing , eh ?
Ok , Organic broccoli . Carrot . Potato .
We can do it all old school . It's easy .
Yummy as . Just stick it in the ground with some shit. There's ground all over the place . There's some just there . i can see it .
It grows itself , by magic.

WE could all of us support our local farmers and producers too .
make a low mileage trip to the farmshop every week . It might cost a bit more , in money , but the value to society would be great .
He grows his spuds/carrots / asparagus in one field , and grazes cow and sheep in the next .No chemicals or owt .

If we all did it , or just a few more of us did it , the big money supermarkets would have to react . They would typically be aggressive . We'd have to , er dig – in.
Dig for victory .

of course , there'd be no oranges . Oranges arent the only fruit , someone once said . We could be happy with apples and pears , eh ? When theyre seasonal of course . Strawbs would be nice . For about a month .
I'd miss bananas , even if just for their comedy value .

You can have a fair bit of fun with a cucumber , though . Can you grow them over here ?

Is that the answer ?

Please discuss . I'm enjoying this .

Do we have nuts over here ?

'shudders'

zzzzzzz – uh ?

>I also cannot understand why veggies feel the need to give meat eaters a hard time.

Because there are moral/ethical/ecological arguments to not eat meat, but not vice versa (I guess there is landscape management that occurs with keeping livestock, but you could argue that's only 1000s or years old)

(FWIW I eat meat, but it does p*ss me off the way some meat-eaters try to be a bunch of smart-arses…)

>Nutritionally organic vs non organic is neither here nor there.

Unfortunately that's always the thing that gets quoted by pepople taking the piss out of organic farming. IMO the ecological element's the most important bit.

Yea . definitely too much coffee .

I'm not taking the piss out of organic .
It's definitely better .

In nearly every way.

hello!