socialism vs capitalism……

however there's still lots of applicants for every vacancy, ergo they are being offered enough money

Except that maybe some people are motivated by things other than money. Like doing a job that actually helps people.

thats the test of value to society

No.

Jobs and a free market.

Try Nursing. No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos. there is a significant shortage of nurses. However wages cannot rise to encourage more applicants. Result – staff shortages

Will you agree with me that perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to "get away with it" ?

you work out a mechanism to fix it and, as long its not communism, Ill endorse it 🙂

Personally I think the only way you'll fix it is by widening the access to the grammar/public school system on a meritocratic basis. The brightest pupils given the opportunity to study in the best schools, regardless of their financial background so that they have the opportunity to select the careers they wish to pursue at will. Then there's no excuse for the thick or idle not to sweep the streets 😉

Flood the market with capable wannabe bankers, that'll soon bring down the salary.

…and Grumm is spot on in one respect, the non-financial component of employment is what dramatically effects the supply-side of the employment market in some sectors.

TJ – that's an unfortunate gap that's been allowed to occur. The state have taken for granted the "goody-goody" value of many people in nursing and assumed it's great enough to pick up the gap in demand and supply. It used to, I'm sure, but as you say, no longer does.

No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos

No they're not, they're set as the result of an annual collective bargaining process between the Royal Collage of Nursing and the NHS. Arguably, that is a free market. In a free market, people can look na the job, it's terms and conditions and say "**** that, i'll be a an independant financial advisor or kitchen salesperson instead". That's also a free market.
Just because the market says the price of this is x doesn't mean that that is the price that will be charged or the wage that wil be paid.

you work out a mechanism to fix it and, as long its not communism, Ill endorse it

Oh there you go Stoner ………. we've only just set up our new dream coalition, and already the cracks have began to appear. Don't start placing obstacles in the way, otherwise it'll never work 😐

If we're going to bring anarcho-stoner-grizzlyism to the world, it has to be sellable to the electorate or we'll just look like the ugly lovechild of Bob Crow and Digby Jones. Communism will just go down like a bucket of cold sick.

it has to be sellable to the electorate

See there you go again …………. putting obstacles in the way.

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do."

Joseph Stalin

I dont have his charisma.

We need some front of house. I hear Mandelson will be out of a job soon?

Except that maybe some people are motivated by things other than money. Like doing a job that actually helps people.

Grumm, so thats a justification for paying them more than the job is 'worth'?

Try Nursing. No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos. there is a significant shortage of nurses. However wages cannot rise to encourage more applicants. Result – staff shortages

TJ – that sounds to me like a vindication of free market economics, people are being paid less than they are 'worth' – and I'd seriously question whether the same wage restriction applies to management and administration recruitment within the NHS (ie, is there a shortage of applications for those posts?)

Also, are there regional variations in that? ie, is it harder to recruit in some areas (eg. the south east) due to living costs? – in which case one would think that staff are being underpaid in one area, and more than likely overpaid in another, due to a national collective bargaining agreement – well done the unions…

I dont have his charisma.

Nor his insight either probably. Uncle Joe once said, "Ideas are more powerful than guns" how very true. He then went on to say, "We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas ?" Well you can't really argue with that, can you ?

.

I hear Mandelson will be out of a job soon?

And I hear that he has unselfishly offered to stay in the limelight and work for the Tories :

Peter Mandelson: I’d work for the Tories if Labour lost

The sacrifices the guy is prepared to make, is truly impressive.

Big but slimmer bloke – that is not how it works. NHS the unions ( not just the RCN) make submissions about wage levels, a quango then sets wage levels. it is not " free collective bargaining"

The other main employer is nursing homes. Much of their income is from the state in payments. The payments are set by quangos / local government. This limits the amount of cash in the system. With a cash limit in the system wages cannot rise to encourage recruitment.

People are looking at the job and saying its not worth it hence the shortages

Surely the point is that unfettered capitalism results in conditions of near-slavery for a large proportion of the population, needing a social control by the state to ensure justice /fairness. Unfettered socialism leads to market breakdowns and the divorce of people's needs from what is provided.

The best systems seem to be those balancing towards socialism where needs are generally universal such as schools, health, pensions, public transport; but capitalism where needs are more individualised.

The best systems seem to be those balancing towards socialism where needs are generally universal such as schools, health, pensions, public transport; but capitalism where needs are more individualised.

which to greater or lesser extent is pretty much the model we have in the western democracies. Phew, thank goodness 🙂

BTW – on the point of wages and bankers, if banking was such a desireable job there would be much lower salaries. One (of many) reason why salaries do climb so very high (also applies to lawyers and accountants in the big firms) is that it can be an extremely shit job if it werent for the compensation of loads of cash. There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital) and the hours are extraordinary – think 7am to 9pm with no breaks as being NORMAL (70 hour weeks), not exceptional. Exceptional is all nighters and all weekends.

There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital)

Nonsense. I'm sure that the adrenalin rush they get from making obscene amounts of money, far exceeds any simular feelings they might experience from saving someone's life.

Banking is for sociopaths of some sort though isn't it? They don't like the same things as other people like. 🙂

pffft.

youve been watching rogue trader too many times.

I don't know that's true. There are plenty of people on minimum wage who work extraordinary hours to make ends meet. Similarly, I know people in call centres who work stupid hours under great pressure – I'm sure they wish they were paid like bankers, too.

Yes, the banking world pays well and there are some good people in there, but I'm sure that society would be better off if they were paid half as much for normal hours.

I must admit, I am jealous of the salaries there because I see the relatively poor wages paid to professionals of similar capability in jobs of more social worth and I can't understand why it's happening.

I must admit, I am jealous of the salaries there because I see the relatively poor wages paid to professionals of similar capability in jobs of more social worth and I can't understand why it's happening.

Its a trait of this country(and others) I'm afraid. Jobs that have Social worth don't make money and are largely funded by the public and there's an awful lot of people who go by the old 80's mantra if it doesn't make money its no good.

and I can't understand why it's happening

i'm no expert but i think it is because the system is shit.

i get fecked off when hearing some muppet say "and that's why he's worth 110k a week" upon seeing one of their beloved fannyballers kicking a ball into the back of the net….

didn't rooney tell his team mates to guve the money they were planning on spending on his b'day pressie to the nurses fund. and not a single fecker gave a penny…

There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital)

I suspect many aren't remotely bothered about that kind of "gain", stoner. Long hours and a tough environment are hardly the preserve of the City – indeed, I am willing to bet that the daily pressures faced by my old boss (Senior Sister, emergency surgical admissions) would make Bob Diamond piss himself with fear. 😈

If the STW coalition ever comes to power, I'd like to see either: a separation of high street banking and what appears to be an out-of-control casino, or a return to plain old barter. 😀

How about a system of exchange based on the transfer of spares bin parts or fettling expertise for goods and services?

the fact that others (sweet, sweet people) work long arduous hours for less pay than a banker doesnt fundamentally undermine my argument that most bankers wouldnt work the hours and in the environment they do for significantly less money.

doesnt fundamentally undermine my argument

I didn't say that, Stoner. But you might understand why I take a dim view of some of the abuse hurled at the public sector, and the NHS in particular (usually something along the lines of "he/she wouldn't last a minute in the real world…").

And (though I would have followed her to Hell and back) my old ward sister was far from sweet… 😯

How about a system of exchange based on the transfer of spares bin parts or fettling expertise for goods and services?

In the post-oil world, bike fettlers and spare part hoarders will rule over all. Hopefully.

Unfortunately some people in the real world (bankers, estate agents, landsharks etc) seem to assume that vocation means "mug who we can pay a pittance because they would do it anyway".

Would we really be any worse off if we got rid of most investment bankers etc? First against the wall and all that 😉