So, Scotland, again…

The currency one is interesting – more so because Scotland has no legal tender anyway.

I don’t follow. Why does that make it more interesting? Is legal tender not just some sort of debt settlement fine print?

The currency one is interesting – more so because Scotland has no legal tender anyway.

the only legal tender in Scotland at present are coins – and it doesn’t seem to cause a problem.

I’m thinking aloud, really – a legal tender (I think) has to be accepted in payment of a debt, whereas a currency which isn’t a legal tender carries no obligation. I could pay for something in Tunnocks wrappers, but only if the person I’m paying agrees. So a currency which isn’t a legal tender has to be more secure to be trusted. Maybe 🙂

enfht – Member

Mel Gibson yesterday hinted in a CNN interview that Hammond will be pushing for a Scottish Dollar.

How unimaginative that would be. Shekels, maybe, or quatloos.

I think we have almost equal levels of knowledge on this subject, Ben. 😉

Plain old legal currency seems to work fine for the most part.

the only legal tender in Scotland at present are coins

I thought this was true in the rest of the UK also: the whole “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XXXX” on English notes

Maybe silver Sickles or gold Galleons if the kids are all getting a say. (Which they should do.)

But there can’t be a referendum to prevent Scottish independance (or, vice versa).

But it wouldn’t be. If put to the whole of the UK, the referendum would ask the whole of the UK their views on a decision that will affect the whole of the UK.

You never know, you might get lucky – the 55m people south of the boarder might be gladly rid of Scotland 😉

I think we have almost equal levels of knowledge on this subject, Ben.

It’s no fun pontificating when you actually know what you’re talking about 🙂

Yer damn tootin.

2014: Scots vote against independence by some margin, Scots Nats continue to bitch and whine for however many decades until they’re allowed to rerun the referendum, then lose again, continue bitching and whining and repeat ad nauseum

Breaking news on Twitter. Apparently Lance Armstrong is planning a sponsored cycle run around Scotland to raise funds for the Independence “Yes” campaign, and he’s not going to wear a helmet.

Will the £80 billion of UK debt people talk about take into account the £18 billion cost of cleaning up Faslane after the “Royal Navy” have left?
What is your issue Zokes? You have a very negative attitude to us, as displayed by your posting on this thread. If you dislike us that much,why don’t you want us to leave?

On the EU issue; the main problem Scotland would have with being accepted is that it sets a precedent for Italy,Spain and France…Who like our Colonial Masters 😀 don’t want to lose any of their vassal states.

why don’t you want us to leave?

What gives you that idea? As I’ve alluded to – give the referendum to the whole of the UK, and you might just find you’re leaving whether you want to or not 😆

Ten minutes reading an independence thread on Singletrackworld would persude even the most ardent Scottish Unionists to vote for independence! Some of the most ridiculous little englander attitudes and misinformation that could be read anywhere.
My favourite one is that Scotland has massive amounts of public money unfairly spent on it while England goes without, Wrong!
Scotland generates 9.7% of UK tax revenue and only accounts for 9.2% of the expenditure from 9% of the population, so per person we contribute more and take relatively speaking less, small margins but we pay our way. If you breakdown this by each region of the UK some areas like the NE of England are subsidised by the SE by a quite ridiculous amount, up to 2K per person per year, Scotland has no dependency on the wealth of the SE never mind being reliant on it to the extent that the English regions are.

I don’t think we’ll get independence this time around but give it another 20 years and I’m sure it will happen, hopefully I’ll still be around to witness it.

I’m thinking aloud, really – a legal tender (I think) has to be accepted in payment of a debt, whereas a currency which isn’t a legal tender carries no obligation. I could pay for something in Tunnocks wrappers, but only if the person I’m paying agrees. So a currency which isn’t a legal tender has to be more secure to be trusted. Maybe

In the absence of legal tender, the court would simply determine if your actions were reasonable; the concept of legal tender just removes the need to a court to consider it. Once the high court had considered it (and perhaps an appeal) there would be established case law which presumably would establish that tunnocks wrappers were not a valid way to settle a debt, but that a six pack of dark chocolate tunnocks teacakes could satisfy any debt!

I thought this was true in the rest of the UK also: the whole “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XXXX” on English notes

My understanding is: Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales, but the concept of legal tender is largely irrelevant in day to day life.

Ten minutes reading an independence thread on Singletrackworld would persude even the most ardent Scottish Unionists to vote for independence!

Ten minutes of reading this would make a Sassenach vote for independence!

You never know, you might get lucky – the 55m people south of the boarder might be gladly rid of Scotland

Except England doesn’t actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.

BBSB – I think the issue for most Sassenachs is Alex Salmon’s smug face and deceitful approach to the whole issue. Personally, I believe that both parties would be better off maintaining the status quo – and Scotland relatively more so. But I hope that the “no” campaign doesn’t get frightened away from spelling out the realities of the situation. Salmon is a past master at dirty politics and manipulation and will twist the “we dont want people from the South telling us what to do” as a far as possible to distort the debate. You could even see this in CMD’s reticence yesterday. AS is right on one thing – don’t underestimate his weaseling ability, or you will regret it (and so will Scotland).

I do want scottish independence. Whether the scots want it or not.

Like Salmond or not, you have to admit he runs rings around Cameron. I mean, look at what’s on the wall behind them:

🙂

But a vote for independence isn’t a vote for Salmond, and it’s not a vote for the SNP – it’s a vote so that Scots get to decide who runs Scotland. After independence, we can all go and vote for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, whatever.

Except England doesn’t actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.

Really? You must be reading different threads. At best it’s a shrug of a shoulders and a WGAF.

EDIT: Or maybe not! 😆

INRAT, but I hope Scotland doesn’t get independance – we need all the Labour seats we can get.

Saying that, if you do vote yes, I’d be moving up there asap.

Salmond is a manipulative master who runs rings around everyone at Westminster, never mind the non-entities and political pygmies in Holyrood.

But by far his greatest asset is David Cameron’s Home Counties, Eton-educated, Notting-Hill-dwelling mug popping up saying how we’re all all better off together – not least, because that has rings of the ‘we’re all in it together’ phrase he used to say, but we strangely no longer hear any more. He’s like political kryptonite everywhere outside the south east anyway.

So the best thing Dave could do is to shut the **** up for the duration. However… as he’s a politician, he’ll be pathologically incapable of doing this. And that, to Alex, will be the gift that never stops giving. No wonder he looks smug!

Ten minutes reading an independence thread on Singletrackworld would persude even the most ardent Scottish Unionists to vote for independence!

Seems a fairly calm thread so far, a few interesting questions, and very little arguing over whether Scotland provides more or less money than it takes from the Treasury. (My understanding is that no-one really knows, which is why the debate rumbles on…)

After independence, we can all go and vote for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, whatever.

something that most people seem to have missed, including many on this six page thread of shoulder shrugging and claiming not to GAF whilst posting 5 times on one page.

Like Salmond or not, you have to admit he runs rings around Cameron.

Yeah, right. Cameron’s in a perfect position: win the referendum, he’s a hero to his party. Lose it: get rid of the troublesome Scots, all those Labour MPs… Screw the Union, this massively increases the chance of a Conservative government in Westminster for the next 20 years. It’s a win-win situation for him, the only loser here is Labour.

And us…

the only loser here is Labour everyone in the remainder of the British Isles, outside the South East Conservative heartlands, who are now saddled with an endless Tory Hegemony, they never voted for

FTFY

It really, really doesn’t bear thinking about 🙁

Except England doesn’t actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.

I struggle with long sentences but…

I’m English. I care if Scotland want to leave the union. I’d rather the whole island stuck together tbh. I reckon it makes us stronger and more resilient – albeit I think there needs to be some rebalancing of resources. However if the people of Scotland want it then I’ll support them in their decision. You support your friends no? And for all the bollocks between our two nations we have sacrificed a lot for each other.

You are keeping TJ though 🙂

It’s been a fairly well reasoned debate so far.

The ecomonic argument is a difficult one to make for either side. The actual figures are very difficult to pull apart and there seems to be deliberate obsfuscation by both side to support their own side of the argument.

I think the ideological argument is the one that needs to be made.

the only loser here is Labour everyone in the remainder of the British Isles, outside the South East Conservative heartlands, who are now saddled with an endless Tory Hegemony, they never voted for

Actually, it won’t be that bad for you guys – I don’t think the Scottish vote has swung any Westminster election for a long time. And on the bright side, you won’t have to put up with our village idiots like Gove and Blair heading down south to get elected 🙂

I think the ideological argument is the one that needs to be made.

Completely agree – look at how FUBARed the economy has got in the last 5 years, anyone claiming to know what it’ll be like in 20 or 50 is lying. What this is about is simply that it’s about time Scotland stood on its own feet – and this will be a good thing for Scotland as well as England, we won’t be able to blame the English for everything any more.

And Gordon Brown…

we won’t be able to blame the English for everything any more.

Can we hold you to that?

An interesting question is this: What do the Welsh think? These arguments always seem to be old adversarial in nature between the English and the Scots. Presumably Scotland leaving the Union would affect the Welsh, and they would probably be more neutral in their response than either the Scottish or the English.

Apart from that, does anyone have any real idea about how the EU would work out? Who’s to say that either Scotland or the remainder of the UK as one nation would be allowed to remain? It’s all very well suggesting a strong chance for renegotiation for the rUK, but what if the Germans and French really are that fed up with Cameron’s tantrums?

You are keeping TJ though

It’s taken six pages but finally the spectre of TJ-cleansing raised it’s helmetless head…Will a newly elected government of an independent Scotland make helmets compulsory? That’ll get rid of him!

zokes – Member
Except England doesn’t actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.
Really? You must be reading different threads. At best it’s a shrug of a shoulders and a WGAF

You are not seriously claim you don’t care about this are you? Because when I don’t care about a subject I tend not to try and start arguments with strangers on the internet about it…Maybe that’s just me though.

But strangely when I do find myself arguing about something on the internet, and the stranger I’m arguing turns out to be well-informed, reasonable and persuasive or maybe just more persistent, I then pretend not to care…hmmmm.

Bring it on! The sooner england is out of the EU the better!

Apart from that, does anyone have any real idea about how the EU would work out?

From my understanding, it depends on whether Scotland is a “new” country, or a “successor” country (I may have the exact terms wrong).

If a new country, then we start from a blank slate – no EU membership, no membership of NATO, and no national debt. But in that case, the rest of the UK (can we please start calling it Little Britain?) would also be a new country, wouldn’t it?

If a successor country, then we inherit EU membership, a share of the national debt (and assets), and everything goes on as before.

I don’t think anyone can say for sure what is correct legally – it’d have to be negotiated.

And there is the ownership and disposal costs of any nuclear waste to be considered.

The sooner england is out of the EU the better!

pourquoi?

@bencooper

I’m not really sure how either of those scenarios would work particularly. Clearly the ‘new’ country thing is out, because as much as everyone would like to forget the national debt(s), I’m pretty sure the creditors won’t.

And as before, the act of recognising Scotland and accepting her into the EU does raise some interesting questions for several other European countries with regions of an independent bent. Either way, it would probably be a good thing for all concerned to have these minor details a little clearer before anything’s seriously considered!

Who’s to say that either Scotland or the remainder of the UK as one nation would be allowed to remain? It’s all very well suggesting a strong chance for renegotiation for the rUK, but what if the Germans and French really are that fed up with Cameron’s tantrums?

Well… the bottom line is that either of us, independent or not, look like economic powerhouses compared with the financial basket cases that presently make up a majority of the EU. Which is why we are, and will continue to be, tolerated. We’re a net contributor. And right now, that’s all that counts