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Looks like procedures for the referendum are moving forwards:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19942638
Excellent use of taxpayers' money all of this.
Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!
I can't work up any enthusiasm for this without TJ
Mods: could we have him make a guest appearance just for this thread? 😉
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Anyway: It looks like its going to be a simple Yes/No question, rather than Alex's preferred third option:
[i]Would you like a half-way house, where we get to do what the **** we like, while those mugs south of the border carry on coughing up the dosh to keep us with a level of public services they themselves could only dream of ?[/i]
Would you like a half-way house, where we get to do what the **** we like, while those mugs south of the border carry on coughing up the dosh to keep us with a level of public services they themselves could only dream of ?
That seemed to be about the sum of it. Though I'm sure braveheart will be along shortly to discuss the finer points of the right to self determination
How much money will be thrown their way to sweeten the unionist option?
Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!
No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?
As much as I'm sure there will be unforeseen issues both sides of the border should Scotland have its independence, I can't help but hope they get it so we don't have to sub them any longer.
Ahahaha.. Etc.
No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?
Umm, because it affects everyone and not just scotland.
No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?
Because it affects the rest of the UK?
I once started a thread on where people though the cultural border would be in the UK and part of that thread spun off into if people north of that cultural border were allowed to be part of a new separate nation with scotland - lets call it un-united kingdom north.
The border would have been somewhere south of birmingham and the vast majority would have preferred to be part of the new separate nation than be remain as england and wales.
Umm, because it affects everyone and not just scotland.
Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?
I can't help but hope they get it so we don't have to sub them any longer.
I'm sure we can't wait to leave so you don't have to.
[quote=binners ]
Anyway: It looks like its going to be a simple Yes/No question, rather than Alex's preferred third option:
Would you like a half-way house, [s]where we get to do what the **** we like, while those mugs south of the border carry on coughing up the dosh to keep us with a level of public services they themselves could only dream of ?[/s]
If you think that was ever the "preferred option" then you are as much of a fool as David Cameron.
Mr Cameron was yesterday accused of acting like Pontius Pilate over the terms of the deal by former Conservative Scottish secretary Lord Forsyth, who said agreement was a “walkover” for Mr Salmond and the SNP. Lord Forsyth said: “Salmond has been able to get what he wants. If that’s a negotiation, that’s stretching the language. It sounds like a walkover to me.
The most telling part if this thread is the title " Scotland, [i]again[/i]. I'm sorry if in your parochial little view of the world we ever disappeared. We've been up here waving at you lots 🙂
Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?
It may be in your interest if everyone does get a crack. I'd vote for Scots independence, Welsh independence and English independence.
I doubt if the rest of the UK would be fortunate enough to have scotland secceed, but if it did, I could imagine a 'Midnight's Children' scenario to start with, followed by waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian's Wall...
It may be in your interest if everyone does get a crack. I'd vote for Scots independence, Welsh independence and English independence.
Exactly. While I may be pro, I know a lot of other folk living in Scotland aren't. Not exactly fair to have their wishes over turned because the English, Welsh or Northern Irish voted for it, is it?
doubt if the rest of the UK would be fortunate enough to have scotland secceed, but if it did, I could imagine a 'Midnight's Children' scenario to start with, followed by waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian's Wall...
Yawn, trololololo
[quote=wrecker ]Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?
It may be in your interest if everyone does get a crack. I'd vote for Scots independence, Welsh independence and English independence.
What about the Irish?
If you think that was ever the "preferred option" then you are as much of a fool as David Cameron.
Of course it is!!! You don't really think Alex [i]actually[/i] wants full Independence, do you? That's the very last thing he wants. He's not that bloody daft!!! Its just suited his ends for quite some time, and delivered his own personal fiefdom! He's just using the whole charade as a bargaining tool to shaft the treasury.
For what its worth, I think he's the shrewdest political operator we've seen for a long long time. Possibly the best ever. He's running rings around everyone in Westminster
[quote=binners ]You don't really think Alex actually wants full Independence, do you? That's the very last thing he wants. He's not that bloody daft!!! Its just suited his ends for quite some time, and delivered his own personal fiefdom! He's just using the whole charade as a bargaining tool to shaft the treasury.
You are so wrong. So, so wrong.
Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?
Well, surely the whole process that's going to take place for the next couple of years before the referendum actually happens would be a prime opportunity to make this an exception to that rule.
The possibility of Scotland leaving the UK does have an effect on the remainder of the UK, so why not allow the rest of the UK a vote?
[quote=zokes ]Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?
Well, surely the whole process that's going to take place for the next couple of years before the referendum actually happens would be a prime opportunity to make this an exception to that rule.
As the possibility of Scotland leaving the UK does have an effect on the remainder of the UK, so why not allow the rest of the UK a vote?
Think of it like a divorce. You're not forced to stay in a marriage if one partner wants to leave.
Give the people a say? You must be mad! Why, they'll want a referendum on the EU next! Just let them have their fun, we know the result will be a 60% NO, Salmond will have had his extra sweeteners from the Treasury and can continue to blame the rest of the UK for scotland's problems, while claiming "I won you the chance to become independent, but you didn't take it...".
Think of it like a divorce. You're not forced to stay in a marriage if one partner wants to leave.
Interesting analogy. So what happens if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to leave, but Scotland got cold feet?
Not exactly fair to have their wishes over turned because the English, Welsh or Northern Irish voted for it, is it?
Well it kind of is from the POV of the English, welsh and NI if they wanted them gone(!)
What about the Irish?
Funnily (or not!), my view of this has mellowed after recently visiting family up there. Traditionally prods, they consider themselves Irish as much as british and weren't too concerned about a united Ireland as long as it only happened once the south had sorted their economy out! Attitudes up there have changed an awful lot since I last "visited". I still have a bitter hatred of the IRA etc though. I have a special dance reserved for the day Adams carks it.
which bit upsets you ? (I am assuming that was sarcasm). Is it the fact that a political party, elected by a majority vote, is carrying out its manifesto commitment? Or were you being more serious and are troubled by the fact that the decision on the format / structure etc will be announced before the details of the Scottish government's consultation is published?zokes - Excellent use of taxpayers' money all of this.
really? according to some parts of the popular press Scotland has been "living it up at the expense of the English tax payer" - bizzarely there has been no noticeable flux of people travelling north for free prescriptions, tuition fees, and care for the elderly... or any of the other services that are supposedly better or cheaper in Scotland.ohnohesback - I could imagine .... waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian's Wall...
It strikes me that regardless of the way the vote goes in 2014 most people probably won't notice any real difference to their lives (for better or worse) on either side of the border.
Binners >>> For what its worth, I think he's the shrewdest political operator we've seen for a long long time. Possibly the best ever. He's running rings around everyone in Westminster
We agree on that.
[quote=poly ]
It strikes me that regardless of the way the vote goes in 2014 most people probably won't notice any real difference to their lives (for better or worse) on either side of the border.
Perhaps not immediately, but if Cameron presses on with his desire for an EU Referendum the two countries could find themselves rapidly diverging.
zokes "Excellent use of taxpayers' money all of this"
Paying for democracy is a bitch isn't it? Why not move to Honduras and let those of us living in the 21st century move on?
Though I think that Cameron is posturing over an EU referendum.
Most interesting soundbite I've heard on independence recently is the Scottish CEO of the scottish-based multinational oil, gas and renewables company I work for saying he'll have to take the company out of Scotland if it becomes independent, mostly based on the inability of Salmond to give scottish business some kind of idea how the independent Scottish currency and economy is going to work. He asked Salmond directly and he couldn't give an answer at all.
which bit upsets you ?
The fact that we're continually reminded just what a scarce resource tax payers' money is, and that frankly it could be much better spent on many other things, not least the NHS and tertiary education.
[quote=bigjim ]Most interesting soundbite I've heard on independence recently is the Scottish CEO of the scottish-based multinational oil, gas and renewables company I work for saying he'll have to take the company out of Scotland if it becomes independent, mostly based on the inability of Salmond to give scottish business some kind of idea how the independent Scottish currency and economy is going to work. He asked Salmond directly and he couldn't give an answer at all.
What bit about this don't you understand?
Alex Salmond is leader of the Scottish National Party.
If a referendum takes place and Scotland votes for independence, then a Scottish General Election will need to be held in order to determine who the government will be.
The economic policies of that (and subsequent) governments are not what are being voted for in this referendum.
mostly based on the inability of Salmond to give scottish business some kind of idea how the independent Scottish currency and economy is going to work. He asked Salmond directly and he couldn't give an answer at all.
Alex's economic pronouncements in the past wouldn't instill confidence if I was a voter. He proposed, pre-crash, an independent Scotland with the regulatory framework of Iceland and the Tax regime of Ireland. All to attract more companies that met the same requirements of his ideal business model - RBS
He's done an incredibly effective job of keeping a lot of this type of economically suicidal twoddle out of the press. I doubt that would last, if there was the remotest hope he'd actually win an independence referendum
Iceland and Ireland you say??
Quarterly statistics from the IMF World Economic Outlook have downgraded the UK’s predicted GDP per capita for years ahead, but show our small independent neighbours outperforming the UK and racing further ahead.A comparison of IMF predictions from April 2012 and October 2012 show that the updated predictions for GDP per capita in the UK for 2013 are $278.88 lower now than they were three months ago, and $443.10 lower for 2014.
The same figures also show that Ireland, Iceland and Norway have all maintained a higher GDP per capita than the UK throughout the duration of the economic downturn.
For 2013, the IMF predicts that UK GDP per capita will be just $37,384. This is 8.4% behind Iceland, 15.8% behind Ireland and a full 51.7% short of Norway, the only European nation, other than Scotland, to have substantial marine oil reserves in its waters.
Additionally the statistics show that this wealth gap is predicted to grow further in the years ahead, as Westminster’s austerity cuts continue to bite.
Ireland, in particular, is set to outstrip the UK economy by a further 2% per annum for several years to come, taking the Irish economy almost 22% adrift of UK GDP by 2016.
From newsnetscotland LOL!
Here's a link for you;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2012/sep/24/ireland-economic-growth-fall-flat
Iceland and Ireland you say??
Iceland:
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland ] the financial system expanded rapidly before collapsing entirely in a sweeping financial crisis[/url]
Ireland:
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland ] In March 2008, Ireland had the highest level of household debt relative to disposable income in the developed world at 190%, causing a further slow down in private consumption, and thus also being one of the reasons for the long lasting recession. The hard economic climate was reported in April 2010, even to have led to a resumed emigration[/url]
They both sound fantastic 😯
That's for the last quarter. And notoriously unreliable forecasts.
What do you think an independent Scotland's economy would look like if Alex had his way before it all went tits up? You'd have been left with all those banks to bail out, with comparatively miniscule tax receipts. You'd presently be making Greece look like Switzerland. And guess who'd no doubt be playing the role of Germany?
Comparisons with Norway are just preposterous
And guess who'd no doubt be playing the role of Germany?
Well if they had the euro; it would be germany!
Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!
I suggest you read up on the rights to self determination and why International law does not require the entire "union" to agree
I wonder if the very same people think the EU should be able to decide if the UK can leave?
Lots of frothing English over this- I fell sur eyour kind words will help persuade the doubters so keep the bulldog spirit and keep posting
Have you spoken with the Australian PM about how your tax payers money is being wasted?The fact that we're continually reminded just what a scarce resource tax payers' money is, and that frankly it could be much better spent on many other things, not least the NHS and tertiary education.
if Cameron presses on with his desire for an EU Referendum
he is pandering to the right wing of his party safe in the knowledge the Lib Dems wont support him to do anything like this - he is also personally pro Europe- or more accurately does not want to pay the financial price of leaving
What do you think an independent Scotland's economy would look like if Alex had his way before it all went tits up?
Is your claim he would be worse than George?
You'd have been left with all those banks to bail out, with comparatively miniscule tax receipts.
Perhpas he would have let them go to the dogs and saved some money
You'd presently be making Greece look like Switzerland. And guess who'd no doubt be playing the role of Germany?Comparisons with Norway are just preposterous
as are yours
Well if they had the euro; it would be germany!
Hmmmmmmmmmm I'd imagine Angela Merkal, and the German population would be hugely enthusiastic about bailing out a load of over-leveraged Scottish banks.
Is your claim he would be worse than George?
Unbelievably, he'd be far far worse. His main complaint was that corporations were paying too much tax, and the banks were over-regulated 😯
mention the Union to you is like lighting the touch paper to a firework
Hate the EU one and yet you love the Uk one
Have you considered Scotland is to the UK what the UK is to the EU?
They want the same as the Eurosceptocs do who cling to one and despise the other
Interesting that folk like being the dominant force in a Union but dont want to be a player or a partner who does not always get its own way
The other issue is Scotland [as is Wales] is far more left wing than England and wants to do what it values. If england stopped voting Tory this issue might go away
However they are up against the English principle -are we the bully or the bullied in the Union before deciding if we like it
Lots of frothing English over this- I fell sur eyour kind words will help persuade the doubters so keep the bulldog spirit and keep posting
Bloody Sweatys, so ungrateful after everything England has done for them.
Enjoy your Tory dictatorship Binners.
Have you spoken with the Australian PM about how your tax payers money is being wasted?
Not personally, but a few have:
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I'm a British citizen anyway, so not sure what any of that has to do with the price of fish.
so not sure what any of that has to do with the price of fish.
ITS EGGS DAMN YOU THE PRICE OF EGGS.
Mainly joking with you but there is a part of me going no representation without taxation 😉
Hate the EU one and yet you love the Uk one
Not at all fella. I agree whole-heartedly with the principle of a united Europe. However, the present shambles is so fundamentally undemocratic that the word 'elected dictatorship' gives it a status it doesn't deserve. It constantly amazes me that people on the left just accept this most laughably undemocratic institution, mainly it seems, as its better than to be seen agreeing with Tory backbenchers or Nigel Farage. its a ridiculous stance to take
The other issue is Scotland [as is Wales] is far more left wing than England and wants to do what it values. If england stopped voting Tory this issue might go away
Complete cobblers I'm afraid. Do you actually know what Alex Salmonds policies are? He's even more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench
He, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised, so people assume stuff which normally bears no resemblance to the reality. Which suits him just fine
If he ever got any 'real' power - ie: to change taxation etc - his popularity would be even shorter lived than Cleggmania
[quote=binners ]Complete cobblers I'm afraid. Do you actually know what Alex Salmonds policies are? He's even more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench
😆 You really are talking complete drivel.
Apart from that there election victory of course 🙄He, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised,
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I, or anyone else in England thinks.
You'll either vote for your socialist utopia, or you won't. I suspect the latter, by some considerable margin. Alex, like Boris, may convince the majority he can run the town hall better than the woeful opposition. Convincing the majority that he could run an independent nation state? Well... good luck with that...
elected dictatorship' gives it a status it doesn't deserve
What like the way Scotland gets a Tory giovt yet only has one MP or worse than that?
.
I dont think you can call the SNP a Tory type party tbh whatever you think of wee eck
The SNP's policy base is mostly in the mainstream European social-democratic mould. For example, among its policies are a commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament, progressive personal taxation, the eradication of poverty, free state education including support grants for higher education students and a pay increase for nurses
How very Boris and Tory that is
Salmond started his political life as a committed left-winger inside the SNP and was a leading member of the socialist republican organisation within it, the 79 Group. He was, along with other group leaders, suspended from membership of the SNP when the 79 Group was banned within the larger party. In 1981, he married Moira French McGlashan,[13] then a senior civil servant with the Scottish Office.Following the SNP's National Council narrowly voting to uphold the expulsion, Salmond and the others were allowed back into the party a month later, and in 1985 he was elected as the SNP's Vice Convener for Publicity.
In 1987 he stood for Parliament in Banff and Buchan and defeated the incumbent Conservative MP, Albert McQuarrie. Later that year Salmond became Senior Vice Convener (Deputy Leader) of the SNP. He was at this time still viewed as being firmly on the left of the party and had become a key ally of Jim Sillars, who joined him in the British House of Commons when he won a by-election for the seat of Glasgow Govan in 1988. Salmond served as a member of the House of Commons Energy Select Committee from 1987 to 1992.
As is that
He, like Boris Johnson, has just managed to pull off the trick of not having his policies scrutinised, so people assume stuff which normally bears no resemblance to the reality. Which suits him just fine
Quite - and yet somehow the complete diddies in the opposition parties have never actually clocked this. You should try listening to FM's questions (Radio Scotland, probably on iplayer) to hear how unbelievably useless they are. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
And as for Fat Eck being a shrewd political operator, given the quality of the opposition, Donald Trump's hairpiece would look good compared to the Labour, Tory and ToryLite mobs we have here.
[quote=binners ]At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I, or anyone else in England thinks.
You'll either vote for your socialist utopia
Which is it - a "Socialist Utopia" or "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench". You can't even make your mind up about that. Thank goodness you're not being asked to vote on something important.
JY: Have a read of Alex's [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2011/06/global-economy-world-scotland ]missing speech[/url] - with his glowing praise of American Banks, RBS, HBOS, Low corporation tax and deragulated markets, and let me know where the 'socialism' comes in. I must have missed it. He's about as Socialist as Tony Blair
Which is it - a "Socialist Utopia" or "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench"
The "Socialist Utopia" is the myth he's successfully peddled, pretty much unchallenged. The "more Murdoch friendly, pro-bankers, and pro-corporate than the present Tory Front Bench" is what you'll [i]actually [/i]end up with. New Labour all over again, but even more capitalism-friendly
Erm... You do realise that this isnt a vote on AS? If a "yes" vote is gained it doesn't mean AS will be in power forever. The way some people are talking about things you would think the referendum was asking if we'd like a lifetime of SNP governments, rather than if we'd like to be independent.
. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
Perhaps they do. Put up a bit of a "show" fight so that the scots feel wanted in case they vote against it, but at the same time secretly hope that they go big for independence.
There again, that would take a level of actual cognitive thought so I very much doubt it's true.
I say let them vote and let them win independence (although there doesn't seem to be enough support for it). We (the UK without the scots) then withdraw our services / infrastrcuture, etc back south of the border. This would include all of Her Majesties Armed Forces.
After a brief period of independence, we then simply use our armed forces to invade Scotland and take it all back on our terms. I do believe we have a bit of previous around this and this time a few hairy arsed men in skirts waving sticks isn't going to help the Scots.
We can then demolish that silly parliament building and dictate our terms.
What could possibly go wrong?
The other issue is Scotland [as is Wales] is far more left wing than England and wants to do what it values. If england stopped voting Tory this issue might go away
Most countries have right and left wing parties - once the poisonous influence of the independence question has gone, what makes you think Scotland would be any different? Give it 20 years and the SNP and Labour will have fused, and will be alternating in government with the bastard offspring of the Tory/Liberals.
JY: Have a read of Alex's missing speech - with his glowing praise of American Banks, RBS, HBOS, Low corporation tax and deragulated markets, and let me know where the 'socialism' comes in. I must have missed it. He's about as Socialist as Tony Blair
Ahem - Trumpton. where the Holyrood based SNP over-ruled the locally elected councilors refusal to grant planning permission for a golf course on a SSSI and have people removed from their homes so the wealthy could have yet another golf course to play on.
From an English perspective for a moment if I may, my understanding of a successful "yes" vote means that it would be an absolute unmitigated disaster for England in isolation. The only reason that Westminster isn't far over to the right at each election is due to the moderating effect of the Scottish constituencies. It makes North Korea sound an attractive option to move to to me.
It makes North Korea sound an attractive option to move to to me.
It might be easier to move to Scotland...
once the poisonous influence of the independence question has gone, what makes you think Scotland would be any different? Give it 20 years and the SNP and Labour will have fused, and will be alternating in government with the bastard offspring of the Tory/Liberals.
When did Scotland last vote in a majority that was not Labour?
I cannot ever see them voting for the Tories tbh]
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
If the Scots get independence and leave those of us outside the Home Counties landed with a permanent Tory Hegemony, then they best get used to what Gretna Green's going to look like...
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Only rainier. With more pizza boxes
Quite proposterous for a region seeking independence, but the only way Scotland can survive outside the UK is in the EU.. with all that that entails..
When did Scotland last vote in a majority that was not Labour?
I cannot ever see them voting for the Tories tbh]
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
Not immediately, but given time it'll happen. The local right-wing will no longer be associated with Westminster, or indeed tied to its policies, while as you say the SNP will lose a lot of its appeal as a left-wing party separate from a (non-nationalistic) left-wing labour party.
Out of interest, the day independence comes into effect: who is Scottish and who is English/British?
wrecker - Member. I'm beginning to think that the English parties actually support independence as there doesn't seem to be one credible voice arguing against it.
I really hope so...
In all seriousness, this could not have come at a worse time for the Unionists. Dave seems to be trying to big up all the good times we have had together,which is a [b]great[/b] policy "And remember when Auntie Margaret tested out the poll tax on you guys first? God,great times eh?" 😀
Also, the question will continue to rear it's head every 25-30 years. I see that the Devo max option is gone; that is quite astute on Cameron's part. Full indy may a step too far for many.
After a brief period of independence, we then simply use our armed forces to invade Scotland and take it all back on our terms. I do believe we have a bit of previous around this and this time a few hairy arsed men in skirts waving sticks isn't going to help the Scots.
Try it; You think the Taliban give you problems... 😈
They are already in the EU with all that that entails
Its not a region its a country - hence why its a Union
In all seriousness, this could not have come at a worse time for the Unionists. Dave seems to be trying to big up all the good times we have had together,which is a great policy "And remember when Auntie Margaret tested out the poll tax on you guys first? God,great times eh?"
Not so good for the Telegraph reading wing maybe, but the rest of the Conservative party? Get rid of the Scottish Labour MPs, and they've suddenly got a much less competition. Personally think the referendum is a win-win situation for Cameron.
as for SNP /Labour merging whi knows but the SNP may loose much appeal onc ethey dont have independence as a rallying cry
IIRC, the SNP exist to achieve independence, once they do that they should dissolve. Then we get to vote for our new government.
IIRC, the SNP exist to achieve independence, once they do that they should dissolve. Then we get to vote for our new government.
You think the SNP politicians will willingly give up power???
They are already in the EU with all that that entails
Its not a region its a country - hence why its a Union
Scotland as an independent nation is NOT in the EU.. and do you really think that an independent scotland will still be able to use sterling?
You think the SNP politicians will willingly give up power???
Constitutionally, I believe they have to.
Well, as a Sassenach living north of the border. I can't say I have any ill feelings about Scottish Independence from the UK. They've proven to be a thoroughly decent bunch since I've been here. And there choice and right to take it deserves to be respected.
The Scottish people deserve this choice. And I can't for the life of me fathom why your average Joe Bloggs would be annoyed by it.
If they want independence from the UK, all the best to 'em (well I will be with them so I would say that). If they choose to remain within the UK, WA HEY, I'll get the beer in.
I do feel that the economics arguments for and against should not be key in the debate. It's a question of self determination!
That said, if they do choose independence I do feel sorry for England. Especially the North who risk living under a perpetual Tory government. Long term is it really going to have dire economic consequences for England, I doubt it. Oil and Gas have what, another 50yrs tops. Will independence even make that much of a dent, 5.25 million people in Scotland and 8.17 million in London alone.
I do feel that the economics arguments for and against should not be key in the debate. It's a question of self determination!
but someone has to pay for it.
Will there be an exodus of Scots going home so they can vote?
but someone has to pay for it.
People have paid a lot more for democracy
piedi di formaggio out and about yesterday.
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Scotland as an independent nation is NOT in the EU
That because it is not an independent nation - what is the radical change they need to expect then - its nothing at all isnt it
Its a weak argument against and i am not pin dancing further with you
Will there be an exodus of Scots going home so they can vote?
What about the near half a million English folk living here, will they be allowed to vote, I should hope so. Maybe they would make up for the Scots that are living happily in England that you feel should move home to vote ?