So, Scotland, again…

Looks like procedures for the referendum are moving forwards:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19942638

Excellent use of taxpayers’ money all of this.

Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!

I can’t work up any enthusiasm for this without TJ

Mods: could we have him make a guest appearance just for this thread? 😉

Anyway: It looks like its going to be a simple Yes/No question, rather than Alex’s preferred third option:

Would you like a half-way house, where we get to do what the **** we like, while those mugs south of the border carry on coughing up the dosh to keep us with a level of public services they themselves could only dream of ?

Would you like a half-way house, where we get to do what the **** we like, while those mugs south of the border carry on coughing up the dosh to keep us with a level of public services they themselves could only dream of ?

That seemed to be about the sum of it. Though I’m sure braveheart will be along shortly to discuss the finer points of the right to self determination

How much money will be thrown their way to sweeten the unionist option?

Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!

No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?

As much as I’m sure there will be unforeseen issues both sides of the border should Scotland have its independence, I can’t help but hope they get it so we don’t have to sub them any longer.

Ahahaha.. Etc.

No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?

Umm, because it affects everyone and not just scotland.

No. Why do you think the rest of the UK would get a vote?

Because it affects the rest of the UK?

I once started a thread on where people though the cultural border would be in the UK and part of that thread spun off into if people north of that cultural border were allowed to be part of a new separate nation with scotland – lets call it un-united kingdom north.

The border would have been somewhere south of birmingham and the vast majority would have preferred to be part of the new separate nation than be remain as england and wales.

Umm, because it affects everyone and not just scotland.

Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?

I can’t help but hope they get it so we don’t have to sub them any longer.

I’m sure we can’t wait to leave so you don’t have to.

If you think that was ever the “preferred option” then you are as much of a fool as David Cameron.

Mr Cameron was yesterday accused of acting like Pontius Pilate over the terms of the deal by former Conservative Scottish secretary Lord Forsyth, who said agreement was a “walkover” for Mr Salmond and the SNP. Lord Forsyth said: “Salmond has been able to get what he wants. If that’s a negotiation, that’s stretching the language. It sounds like a walkover to me.

The most telling part if this thread is the title ” Scotland, again. I’m sorry if in your parochial little view of the world we ever disappeared. We’ve been up here waving at you lots 🙂

Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?

It may be in your interest if everyone does get a crack. I’d vote for Scots independence, Welsh independence and English independence.

I doubt if the rest of the UK would be fortunate enough to have scotland secceed, but if it did, I could imagine a ‘Midnight’s Children’ scenario to start with, followed by waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian’s Wall…

It may be in your interest if everyone does get a crack. I’d vote for Scots independence, Welsh independence and English independence.

Exactly. While I may be pro, I know a lot of other folk living in Scotland aren’t. Not exactly fair to have their wishes over turned because the English, Welsh or Northern Irish voted for it, is it?

doubt if the rest of the UK would be fortunate enough to have scotland secceed, but if it did, I could imagine a ‘Midnight’s Children’ scenario to start with, followed by waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian’s Wall…

Yawn, trololololo

What about the Irish?

If you think that was ever the “preferred option” then you are as much of a fool as David Cameron.

Of course it is!!! You don’t really think Alex actually wants full Independence, do you? That’s the very last thing he wants. He’s not that bloody daft!!! Its just suited his ends for quite some time, and delivered his own personal fiefdom! He’s just using the whole charade as a bargaining tool to shaft the treasury.

For what its worth, I think he’s the shrewdest political operator we’ve seen for a long long time. Possibly the best ever. He’s running rings around everyone in Westminster

You are so wrong. So, so wrong.

Urm, yes, it would, but thats never how these things work, is it?

Well, surely the whole process that’s going to take place for the next couple of years before the referendum actually happens would be a prime opportunity to make this an exception to that rule.

The possibility of Scotland leaving the UK does have an effect on the remainder of the UK, so why not allow the rest of the UK a vote?

Think of it like a divorce. You’re not forced to stay in a marriage if one partner wants to leave.

Give the people a say? You must be mad! Why, they’ll want a referendum on the EU next! Just let them have their fun, we know the result will be a 60% NO, Salmond will have had his extra sweeteners from the Treasury and can continue to blame the rest of the UK for scotland’s problems, while claiming “I won you the chance to become independent, but you didn’t take it…”.

Think of it like a divorce. You’re not forced to stay in a marriage if one partner wants to leave.

Interesting analogy. So what happens if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to leave, but Scotland got cold feet?

Not exactly fair to have their wishes over turned because the English, Welsh or Northern Irish voted for it, is it?

Well it kind of is from the POV of the English, welsh and NI if they wanted them gone(!)

What about the Irish?

Funnily (or not!), my view of this has mellowed after recently visiting family up there. Traditionally prods, they consider themselves Irish as much as british and weren’t too concerned about a united Ireland as long as it only happened once the south had sorted their economy out! Attitudes up there have changed an awful lot since I last “visited”. I still have a bitter hatred of the IRA etc though. I have a special dance reserved for the day Adams carks it.

zokes – Excellent use of taxpayers’ money all of this.

which bit upsets you ? (I am assuming that was sarcasm). Is it the fact that a political party, elected by a majority vote, is carrying out its manifesto commitment? Or were you being more serious and are troubled by the fact that the decision on the format / structure etc will be announced before the details of the Scottish government’s consultation is published?

ohnohesback – I could imagine …. waves of refugees haeding south across Hadrian’s Wall…

really? according to some parts of the popular press Scotland has been “living it up at the expense of the English tax payer” – bizzarely there has been no noticeable flux of people travelling north for free prescriptions, tuition fees, and care for the elderly… or any of the other services that are supposedly better or cheaper in Scotland.

It strikes me that regardless of the way the vote goes in 2014 most people probably won’t notice any real difference to their lives (for better or worse) on either side of the border.

Binners >>> For what its worth, I think he’s the shrewdest political operator we’ve seen for a long long time. Possibly the best ever. He’s running rings around everyone in Westminster

We agree on that.

Perhaps not immediately, but if Cameron presses on with his desire for an EU Referendum the two countries could find themselves rapidly diverging.

zokes “Excellent use of taxpayers’ money all of this”

Paying for democracy is a bitch isn’t it? Why not move to Honduras and let those of us living in the 21st century move on?

Though I think that Cameron is posturing over an EU referendum.

Most interesting soundbite I’ve heard on independence recently is the Scottish CEO of the scottish-based multinational oil, gas and renewables company I work for saying he’ll have to take the company out of Scotland if it becomes independent, mostly based on the inability of Salmond to give scottish business some kind of idea how the independent Scottish currency and economy is going to work. He asked Salmond directly and he couldn’t give an answer at all.

which bit upsets you ?

The fact that we’re continually reminded just what a scarce resource tax payers’ money is, and that frankly it could be much better spent on many other things, not least the NHS and tertiary education.

What bit about this don’t you understand?
Alex Salmond is leader of the Scottish National Party.
If a referendum takes place and Scotland votes for independence, then a Scottish General Election will need to be held in order to determine who the government will be.
The economic policies of that (and subsequent) governments are not what are being voted for in this referendum.

mostly based on the inability of Salmond to give scottish business some kind of idea how the independent Scottish currency and economy is going to work. He asked Salmond directly and he couldn’t give an answer at all.

Alex’s economic pronouncements in the past wouldn’t instill confidence if I was a voter. He proposed, pre-crash, an independent Scotland with the regulatory framework of Iceland and the Tax regime of Ireland. All to attract more companies that met the same requirements of his ideal business model – RBS

He’s done an incredibly effective job of keeping a lot of this type of economically suicidal twoddle out of the press. I doubt that would last, if there was the remotest hope he’d actually win an independence referendum

Iceland and Ireland you say??

Quarterly statistics from the IMF World Economic Outlook have downgraded the UK’s predicted GDP per capita for years ahead, but show our small independent neighbours outperforming the UK and racing further ahead.

A comparison of IMF predictions from April 2012 and October 2012 show that the updated predictions for GDP per capita in the UK for 2013 are $278.88 lower now than they were three months ago, and $443.10 lower for 2014.

The same figures also show that Ireland, Iceland and Norway have all maintained a higher GDP per capita than the UK throughout the duration of the economic downturn.

For 2013, the IMF predicts that UK GDP per capita will be just $37,384. This is 8.4% behind Iceland, 15.8% behind Ireland and a full 51.7% short of Norway, the only European nation, other than Scotland, to have substantial marine oil reserves in its waters.

Additionally the statistics show that this wealth gap is predicted to grow further in the years ahead, as Westminster’s austerity cuts continue to bite.

Ireland, in particular, is set to outstrip the UK economy by a further 2% per annum for several years to come, taking the Irish economy almost 22% adrift of UK GDP by 2016.

From newsnetscotland LOL!

Here’s a link for you;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2012/sep/24/ireland-economic-growth-fall-flat

Iceland and Ireland you say??

Iceland:

the financial system expanded rapidly before collapsing entirely in a sweeping financial crisis

Ireland:

In March 2008, Ireland had the highest level of household debt relative to disposable income in the developed world at 190%, causing a further slow down in private consumption, and thus also being one of the reasons for the long lasting recession. The hard economic climate was reported in April 2010, even to have led to a resumed emigration

They both sound fantastic 😯

That’s for the last quarter. And notoriously unreliable forecasts.

What do you think an independent Scotland’s economy would look like if Alex had his way before it all went tits up? You’d have been left with all those banks to bail out, with comparatively miniscule tax receipts. You’d presently be making Greece look like Switzerland. And guess who’d no doubt be playing the role of Germany?

Comparisons with Norway are just preposterous

And guess who’d no doubt be playing the role of Germany?

Well if they had the euro; it would be germany!

Does the rest of the UK get a vote as to whether we want to keep scotland in the union? If not, why not?!

I suggest you read up on the rights to self determination and why International law does not require the entire “union” to agree

I wonder if the very same people think the EU should be able to decide if the UK can leave?

Lots of frothing English over this- I fell sur eyour kind words will help persuade the doubters so keep the bulldog spirit and keep posting

The fact that we’re continually reminded just what a scarce resource tax payers’ money is, and that frankly it could be much better spent on many other things, not least the NHS and tertiary education.

Have you spoken with the Australian PM about how your tax payers money is being wasted?

if Cameron presses on with his desire for an EU Referendum

he is pandering to the right wing of his party safe in the knowledge the Lib Dems wont support him to do anything like this – he is also personally pro Europe- or more accurately does not want to pay the financial price of leaving

What do you think an independent Scotland’s economy would look like if Alex had his way before it all went tits up?

Is your claim he would be worse than George?

You’d have been left with all those banks to bail out, with comparatively miniscule tax receipts.

Perhpas he would have let them go to the dogs and saved some money

You’d presently be making Greece look like Switzerland. And guess who’d no doubt be playing the role of Germany?

Comparisons with Norway are just preposterous
as are yours