SNP don’t like taking responsibility do they?

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  • SNP don’t like taking responsibility do they?
  • Premier Icon tomd
    Subscriber

    On £50 000 pa you pay £800 a year more tax in total

    Not correct. Difference in take home pay on a 1250L tax code is £1500 on a £50K salary based on the HMRC calculator.

    Why’s it a crap comparison? It’s got nothing to do with the cost of living.

    Aye okay then.

    So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I’ll be better off will I?

    Of course I won’t, that’s why it’s a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living. Scotland in general has a lower cost of living than England, certainly the areas where most jobs are, by a significant amount. That extra tax is nothing like enough to cancel that out and so shouldn’t be viewed in isolation.

    Something something cost of everything something something value of nothing.

    Premier Icon edhornby
    Subscriber

    I agree with TJ, useful comparison – English cities with a mayor (eg Greater Manchester) have the ability to add a discretionary item to the council tax to fund stuff to make their city better specific to them; but guess what, Westminster have already planned to reduce the council investment by the maximum amount raisable by that discretion so it doesn’t actually help because it will need to be raised to go back for the basic services.

    Westminster politicians are desparately trying to give an illusion of devolution whilst not actually letting go. It always comes down to money and that’s the bit that the tories particularly will not budge on.

    as a resident of Manchester I now fully support Scottish independence.

    But yes, £1500 difference at 50k. £125 a month isn’t exactly something to get worked up about at those wage levels.

    So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I’ll be better off will I?

    Of course I won’t, that’s why it’s a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living. Scotland in general has a lower cost of living than England, certainly the areas where most jobs are, by a significant amount. That extra tax is nothing like enough to cancel that out and so shouldn’t be viewed in isolation.

    Indeed, so tax could be reasied a great deal in Scotland without people moving roles elsewhere. Yet the SNP don’t raise tax in any meaningful way at all, and blame Westminster for Scotland not having enough budget.

    Premier Icon tomd
    Subscriber

    Aye okay then.
    So if I sell up my £100k mid terrace and transfer my role with same pay to Kent or Suffolk I’ll be better off will I?
    Of course I won’t, that’s why it’s a crap comparison. You are comparing somewhere with a low cost of living (Newcastle) to somewhere with a higher cost of living.

    I really have no idea what your on about. The decent bits of Glasgow / Edinburgh / Dundee / Aberdeen / Perth are on the expensive side of the UK average housing costs wise. Newcastle is not a cheap place to live either. London, parts of SE & the home counties are a bit of an outlier.

    tjagain
    Member

    Its not £1500 a year at 50 000 pa. its half that. check how its worked out. there is no way on earth its that much.

    check the figures in the link I provided. It cannot be that much due to the very moderate increases

    tjagain
    Member

    NO OOB – the tax cannot be raised a great deal unless its an increased burdon on the poor – because of the way the tax raising powers are limited. No power to alter allowances

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
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    tjagain

    Member
    Its not £1500 a year at 50 000 pa. its half that

    its is TJ

    Pop 50k in here and do the comparison between England And Scotland

    https://listentotaxman.com

    50k in England = £37537 take home
    50k in Scotland = £35993 take home

    Premier Icon tomd
    Subscriber

    Have you tried to put £50k into the HMRC tax calculator?

    I’m very interested in your alternate version of reality because it might save me a couple of thousand a year.

    Premier Icon Daffy
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    tjagian

    Scots NHS for example cost 10% less in admin than in England. ie less than 10% of its budget compared to more than 20% in england

    You sure about that figure?

    The last report I read said that NHS Admin costs are running at 8% average. It’s difficult to believe that would be possible if England, with 86% of the population was running at 20% admin as that would be, on its own over £24bn.

    Also, you might expect that administration in England would be more expensive as there are more people, hospitals and facilities to manage.

    Why does Scotland have so many hospitals?

    NO OOB – the tax cannot be raised a great deal unless its an increased burdon on the poor – because of the way the tax raising powers are limited. No power to alter allowances

    Not true. Scotland Act 2016 allows the Scottish Parliament to set rates *and bands*.

    tjagain
    Member

    But not the personal allowance! That was my point. So the SNP cannot shift folk out of tax altogether so raising tax on those on moderate incomes means raising it on the poorest taxpayers as well

    tjagain
    Member

    Daffy – its the money wasted on the fake internal market and the inefficiency this brings. 20% of the english NHS budget is spent on admin – some of it may be hidden in differnt budgets. the 8% figure is from long ago.

    tjagain
    Member

    I suggest those of you who think you pay £1500 more tax on 50 000 pa actually look at the tax rates and work it out from first principles. Its simply impossible with the tax rates we have.

    go on – look at the real numbers.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    I suggest those of you who think you pay £1500 more tax on 50 000 pa actually look at the tax rates and work it out from first principles. Its simply impossible with the tax rates we have.

    go on – look at the real numbers.

    Whether it comes from the tax element, personal allowance, national insurance or whatever, the reality is someone earning 50k in Scotland has £1,500 less in their pocket than someone in England

    Premier Icon st66
    Subscriber

    In England the tax paid on earnings between 43,430 and 50,000 is 20% = £1314
    In Scotland the tax paid on earnings between 43,430 and 50,000 is 41% = £2693

    So the difference in tax between the two is £1379
    This doesn’t include any extra NI paid in Scotland

    scotroutes
    Member

    This doesn’t include any extra NI paid in Scotland

    There isn’t any. NI is not devolved

    For 2019/2020 I believe the total difference is £1,544 pa and the additional amount recovered is roughly in line with the reduction in the Block Grant.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Here are the direct links to the calculations. The bands between England/ UK are completely different from those in Scotland

    https://listentotaxman.com/50000?yr=2019&region=scotland

    https://listentotaxman.com/50000?yr=2019&region=uk

    Scotland Deductions

    Total Tax = £9,042.36
    NI = £4,964.16
    Total deductions = £14,006.52

    England Deductions

    Total Tax = £7,498.20
    NI = £4,964.16
    Total deductions = £12,462.36

    Premier Icon st66
    Subscriber

    I forgot about the extra 1% on eranings between £24,944 to £43,430. That makes it up to £1500+ difference between Scotland and England.

    I live in Scotland and I’m not objecting. Just calling out the TJ misinformation

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    I live in Scotland and I’m not objecting. Just calling out the TJ misinformation

    Yip, same for me.

    Happy to pay more for all the benefits we get (prescriptions, uni, childcare etc)

    scotroutes
    Member

    Of course, these figures don’t include council tax, which hasn’t been subject to the same rises as in England and Wales, so there is an offset there to consider.

    tjagain
    Member

    Ok

    I forgot the huge rise in thresholds in England – I admit that which is what has made the difference – so that £1500 ( ish) is half tax rises in Scotland ( the numbers I had) and half tax cuts in england – the bit I forgot.

    apologies!

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    tomd
    Presumably the SNP want to attract the well paid jobs to Scotland, and taxing the shit out of them won’t help that

    That’s right, and why the answer is full fiscal control, ie independence.

    lotto
    Member

    No they don’t like taking responsibility, much happier to continually blame Westminster for all the problems in Scotland. I wonder if in their much sought after utopian ‘independent’ nation,the one where they are somehow magically back in the EU regardless of facts like the ever increasing  budget deficit exceeding 3% of GDP, forced to accept the Euro as the default currency etc, that theme would continue with constant beration of their new European masters. I think it would. So often wonder why they want independence when the reality seems like everything they shout about being oppressed in now would continue in other forms within the EU. I’m not sure they want independence at all, they seem a party who argue for the sake of argument, with no clear idea of how they’d actually go about enacting positive policy changes.

    scotroutes
    Member

    forced to accept the Euro as the default currency

    Are you spouting that pish knowing it’s bollocks or just repeating the bollocks you’ve been told in complete ignorance? The latter is slightly more forgivable.

    cultsdave
    Member

    What would be so bad about using the Euro? I often hear it used as a negative against an Indy Scotland joining the EU but just not sure why folk care, would save the hassle of changing currency when going abroad.
    Yes we know that wouldn’t have to use the Euro as shown by the 8 other countries in the EU who don’t use the Euro.

    scotroutes
    Member

    What would be so bad about using the Euro?

    Blah, blah, blah, taking back control, blah, blah, blah

    Spin
    Member

    Define abject disaster?

    A decade+ of constant change and still no better than when it started.
    An exam board that doesn’t just examine but also sets the curriculum, that has made major changes to courses and exams almost every year sometimes after those courses have started.
    Qualifications that are wholly unfit for purpose or the needs of pupils.
    SQA produced assessment materials that contain serious factual inaccuracies.
    Qualifications that are not valued by parents or pupils (N4)
    Courses in S1-3 that do not correlate with S4-6 courses because they are produced by different bodies who essentially do not talk.
    Inadequate detail on course content at all levels.
    Virtually no course materials provided at national level – every school does their own thing and then gets criticised for inconsistencies.
    An inspectorate that instead of upholding standards sets policy on an ad hoc basis.
    Qualifications that are assessed through ridiculous tick box excercises.
    Limited materials produced by SQA and then withdrawn leaving no official assessment materials.
    Inconsistencies in what school produced materials the SQA approves.
    Changes in the marking standard applied after courses have begun and sometimes after exams have been sat.
    Record breaking levels of stress and absence among pupils and teachers.
    Schools being urged to deliver units of work solely to improve their statistics rather than pupil outcomes.
    Massive overemphasis on examinations.
    Key assessment information buried deep in massive documents or not in the documents at all. It’s not uncommon to find out key information by word of mouth.
    Large parts of the above predicted and consistently raised by teachers and unions but not acted on.

    I could go on and on TJ but you probably get the idea.

    cultsdave
    Member

    When it comes to education I don’t know of any teachers who are happy with the SNP’s handling of it. My wife was a primary teacher (now a tutor). she left because the job has changed so much over the years that it made her ill. Many others in a similar boat it really is a profession in crisis.

    Despite that we both still voted SNP in the last election as there is no other option in our minds. Am I pro Indy? Well I am certainly moving that way with the way things are going.

    Spin
    Member

    Despite that we both still voted SNP

    I’ve voted SNP in the past but their handling of education put me off doing so last time.

    I’m another one happy to pay a wee bit more tax for the much improved services that we get here in Scotland. I don’t earn a lot as a public servant (much less than £50k) but know, from the inside of the system, that we get a better value deal here by a fair margin. And anyone earning around £50k can readily afford an extra £125 a month to contribute to better services and a much better way of life.
    Plus, I pay my taxes. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no trusts, no contrived insolvencies, no arrangements, no offshore tax havens nor managed service companies. Social responsibility is an alien concept to some people.

    lotto
    Member

    Are you spouting that pish knowing it’s bollocks or just repeating the bollocks you’ve been told in complete ignorance? The latter is slightly more forgivable.

    No I don’t believe I’m ‘spouting pish’ if my understanding of this colloquial term is correct.  Countries which are currently applying for EU membership but are outside the criteria, again let’s use deficlet’s v GDP for example, have to compromise for entry. The EU negotiate the use of the Euro as compromise for entry where acceptance requirements are  not met, with good economic reasoning for this in a country that has established that it cannot control it’s debt. I’m not saying being in the Euro currency is a negative choice or even a term of  acceptance that would be leveraged and accepted by the SNP,  just  that the SNP could perhaps not have full independent control in leaving the UK to join the EU, thus would continue their constant rhetoric of Scotland’s woes being of other establishments control or lack of. These were my examples to support  the OP in their observations of the SNP not liking to accept responsibility. I was not giving my views on an independent Scotland’s political landscape, just giving possible scenarios as to where I support the OP in that the SNP do not like to shoulder responsibility.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    A decade+ of constant change and still no better than when it started.

    Better is a subjective term. Overall exam results fluctuate by small percentages. What were they like 10 years ago?

    An exam board that doesn’t just examine but also sets the curriculum, that has made major changes to courses and exams almost every year sometimes after those courses have started.

    Is the exam board the SNP? Why is setting the exam and the curriculum bad? Changes to courses and exams after the courses have started? Sounds like a pretty good preparation for the real world.

    Qualifications that are wholly unfit for purpose or the needs of pupils.

    How so? Has something changed from my day when, for example a University said you need 4 B grades at higher? Are the qualifications out of line with the demands of higher education?

    SQA produced assessment materials that contain serious factual inaccuracies.

    Are the SQA and the SNP the same organisation?

    Qualifications that are not valued by parents or pupils (N4)

    Why not?

    Courses in S1-3 that do not correlate with S4-6 courses because they are produced by different bodies who essentially do not talk.

    Have the SNP told the 2 bodies not to talk? Do they never speak?

    Inadequate detail on course content at all levels.

    At the direction of the SNP?

    Virtually no course materials provided at national level – every school does their own thing and then gets criticised for inconsistencies.

    When I was doing my highers back in the 1990s, our course material was photocopies from Carluke Highschool. The reason given was they were one of the first schools to implement Highers in Scotland. How come I managed to get 8 highers back in the 90s with no national level materials?

    An inspectorate that instead of upholding standards sets policy on an ad hoc basis.

    What does that even mean?

    Qualifications that are assessed through ridiculous tick box excercises.

    Welcome to the real world. Not an SNP specific problem

    Changes in the marking standard applied after courses have begun and sometimes after exams have been sat.

    Has been going on since my time at school and probably long before that. For example moving the pass marks for grades to ensure a certain amount of each grade is achieved

    Record breaking levels of stress and absence among pupils and teachers.

    Always been like that and again, welcome to the real world.

    Schools being urged to deliver units of work solely to improve their statistics rather than pupil outcomes.

    Massive overemphasis on examinations.

    as opposed to uni or employers accepting pupils based on being the best fighter in the year, or top shagger?

    Key assessment information buried deep in massive documents or not in the documents at all. It’s not uncommon to find out key information by word of mouth.

    A few points ago you were moaning about insufficient documentation. Now there’s too much info?

    I think you just have to agree you will adopt the Euro in due course but set out the conditions you want to get to to adopt the currency. That may take quite a few years. So no impact in the short term.

    I’m still not sure why they voted leave down south. What are these bad things our European masters have done to us? Is this just an abstract concept in your mind Lotto?

    lotto
    Member

    What are these bad things our European masters have done to us? Is this just an abstract concept in your mind

    I never said European masters have done anything to ‘us’ ? I’m saying the SNP could possibly exchange what they espouse as control by a third party for possibly the same situation within the EU, thus the SNP would continue the rhetoric of Scotland being behest of others and continuing to fail to accept  responsibility in support of the OP observations. My personal view is that whatever form an independent Scotland was to achieve then the SNP would be very unlikely to stay in power. In the long term at least, as other political parties and polices may become more attractive under different leadership and direction.

    tjagain
    Member

    Education is a mixed bag of some OK and some not OK – and those responsible are a mix of local authorities, quangos and the scottish government. the link I put up before from the national shows the good side. I know some teachers in both england and scotland and no doubt the scots ones have a better job in many ways – but yes its far from perfect but hardly a disaster either.

    Its one area where the SNPs centralizing and controlling instincts have not worked as well as they might – but they only set policy in broad. Local authoritys actually control the schools.

    tpbiker
    Member

    And anyone earning around £50k can readily afford an extra £125 a month

    How do you know what someone can and can’t afford? 50k is alot if you are a single person with no dependencies. 50k isn’t all that much if you are the sole earner in a family of 4 with a decent sized morgage to pay. I’m not saying you’d be on the poverty line, but I’m sure in that situation you’d miss 125 quid in you pocket every month.

    If you can’t run a family & home on £50k you’re doing something far wrong.
    That’s a lot of money and leaves plenty of wriggle room for modest luxuries.

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