Hi, I do.

Top of my pay scale as a nuclear plant operator. Minimum qualifications for the role were 3 GCSEs.

I know plenty of folk at sea or working offshore earning similar money, marine engineers used to be qualified at HND level, now a foundation degree.

I’m very open to the possibility that independence could be good for Scotland in a whole host of policy areas. It would definitely be easier to align policies with the consensus in Scotland.

It’s pretty much pointless to try and argue pro / anti independence based on micro policy areas.

The concern for me is that a lot of the “will of the people” arguments for / against independence gloss over the flaws with liberal democracies in general. The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.

If we’re not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.

It’s far from perfect now for sure, but there is a real risk of making it worse.

tomd
It’s far from perfect now for sure, but there is a real risk of making it worse.

The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.

If we are independent we can choose our own responses to the coming challenges, and not have the responses that suit the English majority but damage Scotland.

Yeah but, you know, war.

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/13/scottish-independence-england-would-bomb-scottish-airports-to-defend-itself_n_1341629.html

The concern for me is that a lot of the “will of the people” arguments for / against independence gloss over the flaws with liberal democracies in general. The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.

If we’re not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.

You’ve basically summed up why I’m pro-independence. In the past, before the EU, it made sense to be part of a large country with aligned standards and freedom of movement. It allows the economy to thrive.

The downside is that trying to keep 60 million people happy is almost impossible. Democracy has it’s limits when it comes to population size. At some point you introduce a significant democratic deficit as we have in the UK.

I can’t say for sure but I think the ideal population for a country is around 5 to 15 million. Obviously it depends on cultural factors and how much the population’s values are aligned. Even small countries can struggle if there are significant cultural splits as in Belgium.

Nowadays, within the EU, it makes sense to be a small country. Freedom of trade and movement means that what you lose in autonomy you can make up for in scale.

Of course, Germany manages and I think that’s largely down to their federalised system. If the UK were to become more federalised with regions of 5 to 15 million then I might rethink independence but to me, with the way things are, it’s a no brainer to be a small country within the EU or in the EFTA.

With a country the size of the UK, the only way to keep the population’s culture and views more or less aligned is with a healthy program of propaganda, political suppression, and cultural re-education.

The belief that liberal democracies can manage profound disagreements without resorting to authoritarianism is suspect.

What “authoritarianism” did we resort to to manage the profound disagreements of Brexit?

If we’re not careful we could go from an uneasy, imperfect existence in the union to a very difficult one outside of it. We will continue to all exist on the same small island but will have lost a good way of muddling through without needing to kill each other.

The union is a good way of avoiding the need to “kill reach other”?

You appear to be suggesting we live on the brink of deadly conflict that can only be avoided through an authoritarian union…
That’s just daft.

Can somebody tell me in which universe an ordinary person can earn £50k/year,

Many many ordinary people earn 50k a year. You don’t have to be doing anything remotely outstanding to earn that type of cash. Nor do you need to be particularly well qualified.

Is boasting about turning up for work drunk taking responsibility.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/derek-mackay-video-shows-him-boast-of-drunkenness-at-snp-conference-1-5089741

The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.

How I love this sort of statement! What about this one

The certainty is that by leaving in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.

Most people – pro and anti independence agree of this statement. As an independent nation Scotland will have the opportunity to make it’s own decisions, but it will not make the average Scot better off. At best they will get no worse.

The certainty is that by staying in the Union things are guaranteed to get very much worse.

Why? I doesn’t seem certain unless you make all kinds of assumptions. If Scotland becomes independent there are different possibilities, but in no way will Scotland be free from England. Culturally, economically or physically.

What “authoritarianism” did we resort to to manage the profound disagreements of Brexit?

Brexit is a great example. Did the referendum sort things out? Did everyone feel good afterwards, have big hug and carry on? Nope, it just made an intractable problem more intractable and set the scene for what’s coming now.

We’ve now entered the authoritarian phase of Brexit. Boris will solve the problem by imposing his government’s Brexit with very little input from the electorate.

You appear to be suggesting we live on the brink of deadly conflict that can only be avoided through an authoritarian union…

I’m suggesting that there is more value to what we have than many realise.

I can’t say for sure but I think the ideal population for a country is around 5 to 15 million. Obviously it depends on cultural factors and how much the population’s values are aligned. Even small countries can struggle if there are significant cultural splits as in Belgium.

Scotland is a very divided country. Between the protestants/loyalist/unionist communities and the English migrants there is a large minority who wouldn’t be keen. I’m thinking we’d be more like a bitter, divided small country like Latvia than the Netherlands.

Richest few % of the population earn £50000 pa

Scotland is a very divided country. Between the protestants/loyalist/unionist communities and the English migrants there is a large minority who wouldn’t be keen. I’m thinking we’d be more like a bitter, divided small country like Latvia than the Netherlands.

That’s the too wee and too stupid arguments out of the way. Just add something about affordability and you’ll have the full set.

Richest few % of the population earn £50000 pa

Yes, but you can be “ordinary” and earn that.

Tomd
As an English migrant to Scotland there is no divide between us and native Scots bar in the mind of a few bigots

As an English migrant to Scotland there is no divide between us and native Scots bar in the mind of a few bigots

I met plenty when I lived there. I got let off being from the NE and not a “proper” Englishman.

To pretend there is no dislike of the English in general is not true. maybe it was due to the area I lived in and the work I did?

Maybe it was just you and your nationality was a cover up? 😉

gobuchul
To pretend there is no dislike of the English in general is not true. maybe it was due to the area I lived in and the work I did?

Or your attitude? (No disrespect intended, it’s often inadvertent)

35 years for me and 50 for my parents says different. It’s there in the tiny minority of those bigots again

I forgot that Scottish Nationalism is all fluffy, not like those other types of Nationalism. It might look and sound like other sorts of Nationalism, but it’s definitely not because reasons.

I guess I’ve spent to much time in Hartlepool with English Nationalists. Change the accent and tshirt and there’s not a lot to choose.

Can somebody tell me in which universe an ordinary person can earn £50k/year,

A universe where university tuition is provided free of charge by the government.
That’s how I did it and that’s how my kids’ll do it too if they want to.

Or your attitude? (No disrespect intended, it’s often inadvertent)

Like I said, it wasn’t aimed at me. A lot of dislike towards colleagues who were English and towards the other part of organisation that was based in Southern England.

Richest few % of the population earn £50000 pa

Closer to 10% in the UK.

Fact remains many ordinary people from all walks of life earn 50k.

Fact remains many ordinary people from all walks of life earn 50k.

My chimney sweep is VAT registered, would seem to indicate that he earns more than £50k.

Change the accent and tshirt and there’s not a lot to choose.

Aye, it’s exactly the same.

@gobuchul

The reason I raised the attitude question was because I have observed the same thing you are accusing the Scots off in Australia.

It’s not that Australians dislike the English (although they do love beating them), but the unconscious assumption of superiority of some English people gets their backs right up.

An independent Scotland would be richer so that is a nonsense arguement

Just about every credible economic expert thinks otherwise so I’m afraid any nonsense (I don’t like using terminology like that but I wasn’t first) is to suggest otherwise.

Tj said As an English migrant to Scotland there is no divide between us and native Scots bar in the mind of a few bigots

It’s interesting how often people assume that the bigotry comes from “native Scots”  to use tjs term.

Truth is there are bigots in every nation and every faith. A plague on all the bigots whatever their nationality or creed.

Tomd I do think there are some significant and visible differences between the Scottish Independence movement and the current iteration of English nationalism, or call it an English Independence movement if you like.

1 Everyone living in Scotland at a time six weeks before the indy referendum had a vote, EU citizens didn’t get a vote on Brexit

2 The Scottish people voted strongly for remain. That’s likely to be the case for Scottish nationalists too.

3 The Scottish government has built up public support for a higher amount of immigration and immigration is generally seen in a much more positive light in Scotland.

None of this is to claim that racism doesn’t exist in Scotland it does and it is shameful. Nor would I say that there is anything intrinsically wrong with English nationalism indeed I for one would welcome an independent England.

Just pondering earnings and wondering how it will work with the new immigration policy where migrants have to earn at least £25k (was going to be £30k). Sitting in a hotel just now most cleaning and waiting staff are European. Not sure what they earn but don’t think it will be over the proposed new income threshold. How are These hotels going to get staff in 2021? Do you think a lot of them will close down?

Let’s await the “cost” of any trade deals and see how many are tied to freedom of movement…

This is really a Brexit issue but shows how policy formulated in Westminster can be harmful to Scotland.

Of course there are also those that will tell you there are no immigrants in Scotland so it’s a non-issue.

To pretend there is no dislike of the English in general is not true.

Yet significant numbers of people from England continue to choose to become Scots by settling in Scotland, building careers here and raising families…
How do you explain this perplexing mystery?

I guess I’ve spent to much time in Hartlepool with English Nationalists. Change the accent and tshirt and there’s not a lot to choose.

Ha ha! Worth repeating this statement just to enjoy just how wrong headed it is!

How about that deadly Scottish/English conflict that we need an authoritarian union to prevent? I’m really keen to learn more about it, because despite living in Scotland for most of my life, I’ve completely missed out on this. Should I be worried about the English militia coming over the border in the middle of the night, if tensions increase? I’ll keep an eye on my neighbours in case they are stockpiling weapons for the civil war. Wait a minute, some of my colleagues and neighbours are from England! I thought they were OK, but perhaps they are sleepers!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18239098.independence-referendum-absolutely-happen-year-says-nicola-sturgeon/

However, she admitted that an independent Scotland would not always be simple or straightforward.

“I have self-doubt about things every day,” she said. “I would hate to be somebody who had such absolute certainty that I didn’t entertain the idea that I might be wrong about things.

“So, of course I think about it. I don’t believe that it will always mean plain sailing for Scotland.

“I just think it’s right to be independent to have the best chance.”

I hate it when politicians talk like this. I demand cast iron certainty in every statement they make with 0% chance of any plan failing.

What an amateur!

plain sailing for Scotland.

Plane not plain. HTH.

Could be either tbh https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/plain-sailing

From wiki “<b>Plane sailing</b> (also, colloquially and historically, spelled <b>plain sailing</b>) is an approximate method of navigation over small ranges of latitude and longitude.”

Which is a pity because I was looking forward to complaining to the herald about their lack of sub editing

also, colloquially and historically, spelled <b>plain sailing</b>)

Which is technically incorrect.

Plane sailing is so called because it refers to a calculation that ignores the curvature of the earth and uses basic trig and not spherical trigonometry.

Ha ha! Worth repeating this statement just to enjoy just how wrong headed it is!

Both sets believe strongly in the concept of nations and that creating a new sovereign state is fundamental. They have both constructed a strong national identity by picking and choosing bits of culture and history that suit their narrative. Both sets use that to assert the primacy of their identity and try to further that.

I would say that the Scottish nationalist have better PR and nicer symbols. Just as some skinheads in England shirts doesn’t represent English nationalism in its entirety, neither does the friendly fluffy immigration loving image represent Scottish Nationalism.

Scottish/English conflict that we need an authoritarian union to prevent? 

I don’t think anyone will be sacking York or Stirling.

I more useful comparisons would be Russia / Estonia or Russia / Latvia. It’s all fun and games until the small nation’s interests diverge enough from the larger ones then the meddling starts.

It’s all fun and games until the small nation’s interests diverge enough from the larger

Err, are you asleep. It’s a bit more than meddling we have at the moment. That’s the whole bloody point. If you’re using a telescope to see what’s happening in Scotland then at least use it the right way round.

I don’t think anyone will be sacking York or Stirling.

Yet you actually wrote that an authoritarian union stops us from “killing each other”…

Scottish independence is a big, complicated, messy issue that deserves a serious debate, but you keep posting melodramatic stuff like this that just looks silly.

Your explanation of how Scottish nationalism is actually just like Tommy Robinson style English “nationalism” is really funny. Could you write a bit more about that, please?

C’mon, it’s really simple. It starts with “n” and ends in “ism” therefore it’s the same thing.

Naturism? Nativism? natalism?