Slack head angle myth, geometry voodoo and the inevitable Cotic Soul

Hm, thought about the 26er Inbred, too but had the impression that its geometry is quite similar to the Cotic’s.

On One 26 Inbred in M
– 70/73° Head Angle based on fully extended 80mm fork
– 589mm (effective, i.e. horizontal) top tube
– 105mm head tube
– 425mm chainstay

Cotic Soul in Medium (17.5)
– 70/73° Head Angle with 25mm sagged 100mm fork
– 590mm top tube (effective or “non-effective”?)
– 110mm head tube
– 420mm chainstay

So from a front triangle point of view the two should be very similar in terms of:
– agility
– suitability for 80mm respectively 100mm forks

On One states that it is suitable for max 120mm forks on their homepage, but that’s probably rather down to CEN Health&Safety stuff than actual difference to the recommended 100mm to 140mm span of the Soul.

And if they are that similar (ARE THEY? ANY EXPERIENCE IN COMPARISON?) I’d rather have the Cotic.

Quite like the idea of converting the DMR Trailstar into a fun 80mm cross country bike but that’s probably again trying to force one’s own projections onto a frame rather than doing it justice. Or creating a new niche: 4XC.

Let’s see!

And many thanks for all the input!

Hendrik

hock – Member
Or creating a new niche: 4XC.

Not sure it’s new. I reckon a lot of us have been riding that type of bike for quite a while now under a number of different marketing labels.

slainte 🙂 rob

Trailstars are awesome do it all bikes but unless you have a short body/arms then the top tube isn’t really long enough for “xc” without a long stem. Unless you manage to find an 18″ version, but then it’s probably not as fun for everything else.

_tom_ – Member
Trailstars are awesome do it all bikes but unless you have a short body/arms then the top tube isn’t really long enough for “xc” without a long stem. Unless you manage to find an 18″ version, but then it’s probably not as fun for everything else.

True. I’m only 5’6″ so a 16″ with a short stem is good as an all-rounder for me.

slainte 😀 rob

Hendrik, I have a small Soul with Revs that go between 100 and 130mm. I’m in Surrey. If your height and location are nearby, you are welcome to take it out and try for yourself. Email in profile, I likely won’t see a response here.

well if its any help, im running a Cotic Soul @ 120mm, and I love curry & kebabs.

I’ve got some really good condition fox fl80 forks if you need.

Slimjim, if you love curry AND kebab I will most probably love a Soul with 120s, too! 🙂
Thanks mattjg! I will need a Medium frame and Surrey is a little far off for me.
Bob, I will test the Soul with 470mm rigids and/or an adjustable travel suspforks first.

Best regards
Hendrik

P.S.: The frame I can get comes in the rather “interesting” custard colour. I’m tempted to give it a “trifle themed” colour treatment with a few white and red bits (as icing/cream/cherry on the cake/pudding so to speak) but shall stick to my more stealthy black/grey componentry.

i love the idea of a ‘trifled’ soul.

to be fair, the recent maiden ride on my soul was the best ive ever had on a new bike. they certainly do feel eager and turn in fantastically, my cornering improved instantly.

I like Trifle, kebabs and Curry (chinese, indian and the asian subcontinent).

I’m not overkeen on supplements tho – esp. glutamine.
Anyone got a way of making Glutamine more acceptable to the tastebuds? Perhaps a long travel fork.
or spoon?

Don’t think I will add anything to what’s already been said, but hey it’s Friday afternoon and I’m bored.

Just to confuse things, I ride (among others) an On-One 456 Ti with a Fox 32 Talas 150 fork. The static (unsagged) angles with the fork at 150 are head-66 Seat 67. These figures sound totally wrong but it works great. I set the fork a little soft. The important bit is to have your saddle forward enough to allow you to place enough weight on the fork. The original idea was to run it 130 for normal, 150 for downs and 110 for ups. Seems to work well that way.

Thanks, MarkiMark!

I have the Soul meanwhile, running it with 100/120/140 Talas.
While it’s OK I miss really trusty point-into-the-bend-and-track front end grip.
It feels as if the front wheel is going wide sometimes.

I will try a longer stem (currently 70mm) and more sag.
(Never seems to engage in the 100mm position- is this a common problem?)
And then maybe a proper 100mm or a 80/100/120 fork or a rigid 440mm fork.

Hmm, having just come back from Rogate DH all this talk of short forks and the myth of slack head angles has made me smile.

Its horses for courses folks….while i ‘could’ ride most of Rogate with my 100mm forked Hardtail i wouldnt feel particularly safe doing it, instead i took a 140mm FS with a slacker head angle and had a ball.

It feels as if the front wheel is going wide sometimes.

Whilst i’m sure all your relatives know how to suck eggs, are you running enough rebound?

I wouldn’t put a longer stem on, I’d just get your weight more forwards when cornering. I ride a Soul with a 140mm fork and less than typical sag and spend my time ragging it round very tight twisty woodland singletrack – get lazy and it ploughs on in an straight line, get on top of the bars and it charges round the bends.

Hi chiefgrooveguru,

thanks for your reply!

I’ll give the “weight forward when cornering”-advise a little more tries and time but it’s quite a shift in riding-style for me (not necessarily a bad thing).

I’m used to ride tight and twisty singletracks seated while pedalling to keep the speed up, only coasting in very tight apexes, as it’s pretty flat round here. I can imagine that a “weight forward” approach works better when you can coast down most parts of a singletrack while standing.

The longer stem (e.g. 90mm instead of current 70mm) would help me to shift weight forward while still sitting and pedaling.

Anyway, I’ll try both: weight forward and more sag=shorter fork before switching stems (or ultimately the frame).

Thanks again for your advise, makes me try new things! 😯 😮 😕 😉 🙂 😀

Hendrik

By the way: does anyone know what kind of travel and head angles 4x bikes have? Then again they are probably standing most of the time… 😐

my brooklyn has a 69* head angle with a 100mm fork. but the seat tube is to slack for all day rides.
i just like playing in the woods on it, real good on single track but i have to stand.

nice bike, pastcaring!!
———————————
I’ve been out with low pressure in the Talas in an attempt to mimic a shorter fork (yeah, not ideal…).
Now I know at least what some people here meant with “it tucks in”. 😕

Anyway: it still confirmed to me that I prefer the steering with a shorter fork – it gets rabid rapid!
And the tucking in was probably more to being silly short when pushed into turns with the lack of pressure. 😳

Let’s see where I can take it from here.. slightly longer stem… … different fork… …just short and taut… or short and rigid..? Will see! 🙂

The best thing you can do is buy an adjustable travel fork and have a play around with what suits YOU best. Horses for courses, everyone is different.

thanks kudos!

Talas is adjustable but with 100/120/140 at the tall end for my liking.
Will look into 80/100/120 forks though.

– update and back to square one question –

History so far:
did run my Soul with a Talas that were stuck in 120mm or + position, didn’t like it for my flat tight’n’twisty singletrack riding, couldn’t achieve/enjoy the recommended “aggressive over the front” style; 100mm stem and a lot of sag helped but had obvious unwanted side-effects (bobbing, geometry change through long available travel, tucking-under when compressed in tight turns)

So I switched to 440mm rigid carbon forks (Kinesis?!) and love it! In combination with 70mm stem they provide the agile, nimble, nippy steering that I want from a bike – great!

But… well.. the Soul is too good to be limited to a fully rigid existence. I want to get a suspension fork for it to make it more versatile.

Question:
– which suspension travel and which forks would you recommend in my case?
– forum wisdom suggests that sagged 100mm travel suspension handling comes closest to 440mm rigid while 80mm suspension would be too short under compression and “tuck under” as a result
– I’m not afraid of steep headangles (it’s flat around here, I don’t do anything gnarly) and wouldn’t mind to run my forks pretty stiff to avoid too much travel induced geometry changes while riding – so maybe 80mm would still work for me?!
– I thought about a 80/100/120 Rebas as a do it all solution which would be nimble in 80mm lock-out and 100mm suspended form while having a spare 20mm should I ever venture into “gnarlier” territory
– if Rebas, which should I get, I want them light, stiff, cheap and ideally travel adjust available on the run w/o tools – the different R/RL/RLT… versions available confuse me big time!
– or are there better forks for my case? SIDs, Magura, X-Fusion…
– on a slightly different note: are there 26″ suspension fork around which have more/less trail than standard, maybe that’s a different route to find suspension for my bike that doesn’t ruin the nimbleness

I know, I know, it’s all horses for courses and some will say 100mm is fine, while others say 120mm is sweet (not for me, thanks!), but maybe someone here did the step from 440mm rigid to 80mm or 100mm suspended and can share their experience.

Many thanks!

You want “U-turn” Rebas for on the fly adjustment. I don’t know if there are any in the line-up at the moment, but I’m sure someone (or google) will confirm.

If it says 80/100/120 “all travel adjust”, then it’s referring to changing the travel by taking the fork apart and adding/removing spacers. Pretty straightforward, but not exactly a trail-side job!

P.S.: Or is there a fun and agile 80mm travel steel frame alternative for my case?

Charge Duster

Thanks nedrapier! U-Turn for on the fly travel adjustment.

Can someone explain the difference between current RL and RLT Rebas?
The only difference I can spot from the SRAM hp is Motion Control RL vs Motion Control RLT (very helpful..).
Weight and rest seems to be the same. RLT is mentioned as only RS fork with u-turn but it doesn’t say in the Reba RLT specs but on the u-turn technology page…

I like the Charge Duster a lot, but it has a terribly short top tube, doesn’t it?

Anybody experience with X-Fusion Velvet forks?

RLT has a threshold adjuster for the compression knob, RL has an allen key adjust for same. I got the RLs – RLT and/or RCT3 struck me as a waste of time.

Have a look at the Sanderson Life, it is steel and, i think, has steeper geo than a lot of other frames.

http://sanderson-cycles.com/content/sanderson-life