Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Binners – you only had to read the papers to see supposed labour bigwigs briefing against Corbyn

I do. Every day. Like I said… specific examples please?

This reads as sexism, on top of the ageism above. Can you not make your point without resorting to these types of remark?

I think you’ll find that its actualy Dazzism. And he knows I love him 😀

I think you’ll find that its actualy Dazzism. And he knows I love him 😀

I understand it’s meant that way, but it does not read that way.

Equally, it seems to me that Corbyn’s critics have yet to learn the lessons of why he won two leadership elections. Top tip: it wasn’t about him.

Corbyn and McDonnell will come out of the pandemic largely vindicated. The centrists are as stuffed as the tories are right now because the policies they said weren’t possible are now the only thing preventing a total economic collapse. I reckon politics will be turned on it’s head from now where the arguments will be about how far left we go, not how far right.

I understand it’s meant that way, but it does not read that way.

Interesting fact for you: I’ve been riding with Daz for years*. Every ride, by law, finishes at the pub (hey… I don’t majke the rules!). In all those years, over the hundreds of pints we’ve swilled, and all the total bollocks we’ve talked, neither of us has ever once spoken about politics.

Thats what this place is for 😀

* God only knows how many hours that poor bloke has spent at the top of hills, waiting for me

The ultimate joke.
A Labour Party with a titled leader.
Why not just call themselves Tory-Lite?

A lot of labour party leaders receive peerages on retirement. I think Michael Foot turned his down, but Neil Kinnock, Harold Wilson and Clement Attlee all had titles (as does David Steel and Paddy Ashdown)

Keir Starmer has just got one earlier, and for doing something other than being a politician.

Who is the most popular leader of the Tory party with its current membership, after Thatcher? Ian Duncan Smith.

Labour has a vastly larger and more diverse membership, with a completely different leadership election process. Apples and oranges.

Corbyn and McDonnell will come out of the pandemic largely vindicated. The centrists are as stuffed as the tories are right now because the policies they said weren’t possible are now the only thing preventing a total economic collapse.

Even without the pandemic – the ‘market’ generally was pretty screwed; in that it had reached a tipping point. There was also going to have to be massive state intervention at some point – everyone who thought otherwise has not been paying attention.

The pandemic has highlighted the Dominic short-Cummings of only looking after profit at the expense of society at large.

We have to get away from the idea that taxes pay for stuff. They absolutely don’t – they are a means to control inflation, destroy money in circulation – and we are far from short of government money. Sunak was up to receive a Golden Globe for his performance in which super-centrists like James O’Brien were prematurely excited – when the reality is they were going to be pretty awkward about the public getting hold of the money.

The money is available – it’s just the Tories are saddled with the ideology that the government finances are like a house-hold budget. But then so is the majority of the population.

Binners stop attempting to rewrite history- from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/07/former-labour-mp-ian-austin-urges-voters-back-boris-johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/14/labour-mp-jess-phillips-knife-corbyn-vote-loser-general-election

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/jeremy-corbyns-honeymoon-period-will-last-until-local-elections

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/29/mps-tell-jeremy-corbyn-get-grip-or-lose-election-antisemitism

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/secret-recording-neil-kinnock-jeremy-corbyn-step-down-speech-to-mps-in-full
etc etc etc for pages and pages

Corbyn and McDonnell will come out of the pandemic largely vindicated. The centrists are as stuffed as the tories are right now because the policies they said weren’t possible are now the only thing preventing a total economic collapse.

Is everyone else in the Labour Party a centrist?

Time to retire that trope, it’s as dull as the Red Tory one.

What governments of all colours do during times like these often looks like the state stepping up to the plate and using centralisation and big government borrowing to get through the worse of it… (and it is)… but these policies aren’t the reserve of two nice old men who were great backbench MPs, but turned out to be poor leaders, bless them. That Gordon Brown fellow would, and does, approve of that kind of thing in response to events. And that Darling man. Does Blair? I’d be surprised if he didn’t.

Interesting fact for you: I’ve been riding with Daz for years*. Every ride, by law, finishes at the pub (hey… I don’t majke the rules!). In all those years, over the hundreds of pints we’ve swilled, and all the total bollocks we’ve talked, neither of us has ever once spoken about politics.

And you don’t think a real chat would reconcile some of the debate?

Because on here – nothing is ever moved forward.

somewhat slightly dazed
A lot of labour party leaders receive peerages on retirement. I think Michael Foot turned his down, but Neil Kinnock, Harold Wilson and Clement Attlee all had titles (as does David Steel and Paddy Ashdown)

Yes, it’s sad commentary. I think the Establishment calls the process ‘duchessing’.

And you don’t think a real chat would reconcile some of the debate?

What the hell would we want to do that for? 😀

Best avoided.

In all those years, over the hundreds of pints we’ve swilled, and all the total bollocks we’ve talked, neither of us has ever once spoken about politics.

It’s true. It’s never even crossed my mind to talk about politics with Binners in real life 🙂

In fact I rarely speak about politics in real life with anyone, because if I do I have to caveat everything with common sense. I like my student left anarchist bubble.

And you don’t think a real chat would reconcile some of the debate?

What!? And spoil all the fun?

As this thread touches on BJ & the virus (no not Cummings), I wonder if he’s using the “self isolating” excuse to be away from the daily briefing, facing awkward questions and being found wanting?

I wonder if he’s using the “self isolating” excuse to be away from the daily briefing, facing awkward questions and being found wanting?

I’m concerned that he is far more ill than we are being made aware of ( probably the wrong thread for this, sorry).

A good article touching on just that by John Crace in the Guardian

A Govester briefing is proof we’re scraping the trustworthiness barrel

They’re getting away with this lack of scrutiny because they’ve had the good luck to have no functioning oposition to hold them to account since before this actually hit. The sooner the labour party gets its thumb out from up its arse with this never-ending leadership election, the better.

This should all have been done and dusted while Coronavirus was something that was still confined to a province in China. Its absolutely ludicrous that the process is still dragging on

Govester?

Try…

LIZ TRUSST SPEAKS TO THE NATION …

And you don’t think a real chat would reconcile some of the debate?

What!? And spoil all the fun?

Exactly! The days are long enough at the moment. You’re not taking this away from me.

They’re getting away with this lack of scrutiny because they’ve had the good luck to have no functioning oposition to hold them to account since before this actually hit.

You’ve made comments like this before now. I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I have a terrible memory, but I cannot remember when any opposition party held the government to account – they have little means to do so.
I guess there was a time, before New Labour’s election win in 1997 when Tony Blair’s opposition did hold the government to account, but I would argue that was due to the media and those with power having lost faith in the Tory government of the time. And, New Labour offering little to threaten the status quo.

And, New Labour offering little to threaten the status quo.

The minimum wage was evil, and would result in millions more people becoming unemployed. That’s what they said. And massive increases in spending on the NHS would just be wasted and would bankrupt the country.

I never voted for Labour under Blair, but that Labour opposition was a long way from the Tories of even those days, never mind this lot.

I never voted for Labour under Blair, but that Labour opposition was a long way from the Tories of even those days, never mind this lot.

Do we reckon we could do something original by not repeating the same tired Tony Blair arguments again? If others can, I promise I won’t mention Iraq on this thread 🙂

Back to Keir, there was a report the other day saying he was lining up Rachel Reeves as his shadow chancellor. I think it’s probably likely as she’s been more vocal recently on econonic matters which will be no coincidence. Big mistake though, especially in the current environment with her pro-austerity background. It sets up a battle with the left who will demand/expect RLB to succeed McDonnell. Much as Binners wants a Kinnock style purge the hundreds of thousands of pro-Corbyn members are not going away and it makes little sense to start a new civil war.

Its the perfect time to get rid of all the idiots. Long way from the net election, low down news priorities and contrary to what folk say there is no huge Corbynista movement and they do not hold power. What there is is a desire for the party to be actually left of centre in the grassroots. corbyn was who they gathered around but as we can see from the voting intentions Long Bailey has NOT got the same groundswell

Binners – accept that labour MPS were constantly briefing against Corbyn? Or do I need to go and search the gutters of the tory press?

I cannot remember when any opposition party held the government to account

One of the ways an opposition does this to to have a strong enough voice and strong enough policies that the party in power copies them. New Labour did that with the Tories, and arguable Cameron did that with New Labour.
When the opposition are so far away from the party in power, which is where we are now you lose that.

it makes little sense to start a new civil war.

Actually, if you’re going to start a civil war, now is exactly the right time to do it. With no election on the horizon, no is the time to be doing the internal dirty work allowing a more united party to be ready to fight an election in 4 and half years time.
Getting Starmer in to do the nasty work now is very good timing indeed.

Do we reckon we could do something original by not repeating the same tired Tony Blair arguments again?

Which “centrists” were you on about then Dazh? My reply to you was literally a request to stop with that boring stuff.

especially in the current environment with her pro-austerity background

Try looking forwards, not backwards.

It sets up a battle with the left who will demand/expect RLB to succeed McDonnell.

Forwards.

What there is is a desire for the party to be actually left of centre in the grassroots.

Absolutely. And hopefully it will be. For that to succeed, highly competent impressive people need to make the case.

Which “centrists” were you on about

Yes I was talking about the blairites. There are many in the PLP, and vanishingly few in the wider party, who still can’t move on from the failed neo-liberal ‘centrist’ economic orthodoxy. If they had their way we’d spend the next few years talking about fiscal prudence and incremental reform. Even before coronavirus  we were in a very different place to the 90/00s, now we’re in another universe where the things like borrowing limits, national debt and austerity are meaningless. The pandemic has provided the opportunity to reorganise the economy (and politics) for the benefit of everyone rather than the tiny few at the top. Labour are not going to capitalise on that by harking back to past glories.

I’m left wing. Corbyn moved the party’s policies in my direction. He got me voting Labour. He then wasted years by not standing down after his general election loss. He put Labour into its current hole, not “blairites”. The new leader needs a new team, with capable left wing people, and I care not whether they stood with Corbyn while it was blindingly obvious to everyone else that he was the wrong person to carry on leading the party.

It sets up a battle with the left who will demand/expect RLB to succeed McDonnell.

Rebecca Long Bailey will get nowhere near the chancellrs job. Nor should she. For obvious reasons.

She’ll be farmed out to the Department of Social Affairs and Citizenship in line with her abilities

Rebecca Long Bailey will get nowhere near the chancellrs job.

Let’s hope not. She could well have a front bench role though.

She’ll be farmed out to the Department of Social Affairs and Citizenship in line with her abilities

An environment brief is more likely. And a key role.

Binners – accept that labour MPS were constantly briefing against Corbyn? Or do I need to go and search the gutters of the tory press?

Get yourself off to the Daily mail website Uncle Jezza, because i firmly believe its all paranoid, lefty, bunkerist, siege-mentality nonsense, with no basis and reality and nobody, including yourself, despite being repeatedly asked, has yet provided a single example that its not.

The articles you linked are former labour MP’s or people just staing the bleeding obvious, that Corbyn was bloody useless. It hardly mounts to skullduggery and was born of the frustration at the party tanking in the polls against the most hopeless, flailing government this country has ever seen

Its simply not credible. From what I can see the PLP just sat back and let the Corbynites keep digging, knowing full well what the achingly predictable outcome would be.

And here we are…

I thank any Labour MP that said what needed saying about Corbyn as leader, while he was leader. He should have stood aside years ago. In fact, any MP that doesn’t recognise that fact after he has finally gone, will have a long term credibility problem.

From what I can see the PLP just sat back and let the Corbynites keep digging,

Nah, most of them tried to oust him. It went badly. Many kept saying he was a problem right up to, and past, the last election. Don’t try and rewrite history Binners. While many went quiet and played the waiting game, plenty left parliament for Labour roles outside the PLP, or left the party completely, or used every opportunity when campaigning for re-election to distance themselves from him.

or used every opportunity when campaigning for relectuon to distance themselves from him.

Common sense dictates nobody wants to be in the immediate vicinity of a car crash

And massive increases in spending on the NHS would just be wasted and would bankrupt the country.

Stop with this nonsense. You just can’t bankrupt a country that is in control of its own money supply.

It’s just not possible. This is old-school Tory speak.

Repeat after me – There is no solvency issue for a sovereign government …

“Whether the economy is strong or weak, the British government can never default on its debt. The debt is nothing more than pieces of paper that the government promises to buy back on a specific date. These pieces of paper can be bought back with new pieces of paper (new bonds) with later buy-back dates. If the private owners of the debt paper do not want the new bonds (new debt paper), our government can sell those new bonds to the Bank of England for cash and use the cash to pay the bond holders.”

tj:

Its the perfect time to get rid of all the idiots.

An interesting idea, but who gets to decide who the idiots are? Or do you mean, the people you don’t agree with?

Also, it seems a bit out of order to harangue binners to answer your questions, when you say:

I am only dipping in and out of this thread so do not expect replies from me.

binners:

Rebecca Long Bailey will get nowhere near the chancellrs job. Nor should she. For obvious reasons.

Again, it is not obvious to me; she appears quite a competent person and knowledgeable when she speaks. What are some of these reasons?

Stop with this nonsense.

It may well be nonsense. It was never my thinking. It was what was said about the Labour opposition plans on the run up to winning that first election under Blair.

Reread all my post, with that sentence in context, and the post it was replying to.

Again, it is not obvious to me; she appears quite a competent person and knowledgeable when she speaks. What are some of these reasons?

Press don’t like her. Done.

Is may be nonsense. It was never my thinking. It was what was said about the Labour opposition plans on the run up to winning that first election under Blair.

I will give you that – Labour are culpable in this process.

You are impossible to engage with sometimes Rone. I was arguing against the idea that the New Labour opposition weren’t seen as threat to the status quo before they game to power. The minimum wage and putting large increases of funds into the NHS were fought hard by the Tories and many of those in positions of power or with money. Those were two example of how Labour opposition polices were portrayed as “dangerous” and wrong … two policies that were badly needed by many people at the time, and became the new status quo. Only looking back do they look anything like “more of the same”… they were a big positive change, but portrayed as dangerous ideas at the time.

Binners – I just provided you with half a dozen examples of exactly what I was saying – labour MPS briefing against Corbyn.

Do yo want more?