Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

Problem is you can’t really turn the other cheek.

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren’t there.

When someone commits an atrocity to provoke you into changing policy the only sane response is to not change your policy.

I saw an item on TV about ISIS predilection for Hi-Lux trucks

well known fact that the lefty broadcasters made their sales pitch through Top Gear. #notarealhamster

I’d guess there are a lot in the Republican community who would say that the British government didn’t turn the other cheek until quite late in the day

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren’t there.

True, although we did ultimately give them what they wanted.

If we were to use the same approach with radical Islam, we would have to forego support of Israel. If the west stopped supporting Israel, the attacks would stop. I think that is the only credible route we can take. Israel is a nuclear power and can defend itself.

Sarkozy has chipped in with saying it should be a crime to view radical Islam sites in the same way as viewing child porn sites. Hollande has indulged in some bombing that one wonders why it was still left to be done if it was so important and Marine… .

It would be nice if my glorious leaders could be “assignés à résidence”, fitted with a “bracelet électronique” and gagged for the time it takes for them to realise that making new enemies isn’t helpful when you haven’t got the means to deal with those you’ve already made.

I’m not sure this is about Isreal. As I understand it ISIS need ‘Rome’ to attack them at Dabiq to fulfill the Prophesy they’re spouting.

The US and it’s allies are “Rome” so beheading innocent people on Camera and committing this last atrocity are aimed at getting the West to go to war with them.

That’s what they want. A physical Caliphate and their apocalyptic war.

The nearest thing to a victory we can achieve is to support their many opponents in the background and leave them isolated.

In a few years Sunnis in the region will realize they are just another failed government who show no sign of making people prosperous.

If we attack them we make them look like defenders of Arabs against the West. Which is the narrative they want.

I agree the core of the Jihadist movement is motivated by an apocalyptic vision of a showdown with the West.

But the wider support which Islamists have been able to garner from the Arab world including countries like Saudi Arabia rests entirely on the West’s support for Israel. The West has imported the Arab-Israeli conflict and it is taking place by extension in the cities of Europe.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It’s depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap. More cynically, I’d suggest they use the fear which terrorism breeds to build their own political popularity by sending in the planes.

I think you’re right and that both sides are willing to play the same game – for different reasons. For US and UK, it’s a policy of perpetual warfare.

Ticks lots of boxes. Shows leaders to be strong. Maintains investment in military industry. Provides dead and injured soldiers to idolise. Fosters patriotism. Justifies removal of freedoms. Generally keeps society fearful and more manageable.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It’s depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap. More cynically, I’d suggest they use the fear which terrorism breeds to build their own political popularity by sending in the planes.

Damn if they do, damn if they don’t. The leader must be seen to do something.

Or they can apply cold war style making people disappear … without publicity.

interesting article mudmuncher, thanks for posting the link

Quite right Copa.

The political atmosphere is all too reminiscent of the aftermath of 9/11.

An article written by Peter Hitchens (I recognise he isn’t too popular on here) called for calm and consideration rather than reprisals. It’s received hundreds of downvotes.

As Yogi Berra put it, it’s deja vu all over again.

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren’t there.
True, although we did ultimately give them what they wanted.

If we were to use the same approach with radical Islam, we would have to forego support of Israel. If the west stopped supporting Israel, the attacks would stop. I think that is the only credible route we can take. Israel is a nuclear power and can defend itself.

The thing is that you could negotiate with the IRA as they had a clearly stated set of goals. The only goal, if you could call it that, you see with this lot, is the complete subjugation of everyone and everything to their philosophy. So what negotiating position do you take when thats your starting point?

You can’t negotiate with fascists, because the whole point of fascism is the absolute refusal to recognise any other philosophy than your own as legitimate.

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

The core of the Islamist movement doesn’t, as you say they are hellbent on destruction for its own sake.

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel. Europe has effectively imported the Arab-Israeli conflict into its own cities.

atlaz

Problem is you can’t really turn the other cheek. Not only does it show weakness which again will be used as a rallying cry for the extremists, but it is unpalatable to the majority of people who elected you.

How can anyone say that with a straight face when you’ve bombed the shit out of the middleast for generations?

atlaz

I’d guess there are a lot in the Republican community who would say that the British government didn’t turn the other cheek until quite late in the day

And every volunteer killed in shoot to kill policies by the security forces created 10 more in their place. Every innocent catholic illegally interned, illegally detained, assaulted, insulted, murdered…all contributed to the ranks of the IRA.

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

you talk shit my friend and anyone that believes what you say or has your pathetic thoughts talk shit.

What happened in Paris happens in Israel on a daily basis with stabbing etc but you Islam loving idiots wont/don’t see it…

Its the same war whether its in Israel Africa Europe Australia they want anyone that doesn’t share their view wiped off the planet and you lot with your loving views I’m sure will be spared…

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

Sorry fella, but that really is hopelessly naive. While I’m no fan of our unquestioning support for Israel (in fact I think its ridiculous), that would be seen as the first victory in an ongoing war, and they’d just march towards the next one. These people are idealogical zealots, who’s only goal is the complete subjugation of everyone to their ideology. One of the stated aims of that is the destruction of Israel. So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

binners

So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

Nuclear military super power Israel would suddenly be defenseless? Would their tanks and helicopters and fighter jets suddenly rust and decay? Would they run out of missiles to drop on innocent civilians?

Nice to see solidarity in participation of the 1min silence…

Remember Islam is a religion of peace…

stupid comment is stupid, etc etc…

Nuclear military super power Israel would suddenly be defenseless? Would their tanks and helicopters and fighter jets suddenly rust and decay? Would they run out of missiles to drop on innocent civilians?

Look at the whole track record of western interference in the middle east over the last few decades. If it teaches us anything,its that we have absolutely no ****ing idea what will happen when we try to achieve something by any particular action.

The only constants are

a) It never ever works out remotely as we thought it would
b) Its always about ten times worse than our initial assessment of what the worst case scenario would look like

So I haven’t the remotest idea what would happen if the west withdrew its support for Israel, but ones things for sure, neither do I want to find out what that might look like. Because I think we can say with some degree of certainty is that it wouldn’t end well

One of the stated aims of that is the destruction of Israel. So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

Israel is a nuclear power with the most sophisticated defense system around. It can protect itself.

The grievance which ISIS and other radical groups exploit is Israel. If you attempt to address that grievance, then you take away the main recruiting tool of use to radical Islamists. You can also put a wedge in between it and the wider Arab world.

As I said, radical Islamism has a core of fanatics, but like any revolutionary group, it is dependent on outside sources of support and funding. I’m not saying radical Islamism will stop being a force any time soon, but it’s a far wiser policy than continuing to bomb and invade the Middle East.

Syria same

Nails it.

binners

So I haven’t the remotest idea what would happen if the west withdrew its support for Israel, but ones things for sure, neither do I want to find out what that might look like, because I think we can say with some degree of certainty is that it wouldn’t end well

Condemning Israel’s actions isn’t the same as standing idly by and watching another holocaust unfold. Western indifference to Israels genocidal approach to self defense just emboldens Israel and enrages their neighbours and makes western powers look even more transparently hypocritical, just one more thing to help radicalise young muslims.

you talk shit my friend and anyone that believes what you say or has your pathetic thoughts talk shit.

In this case unfitgeezer, I think it’s fairly obvious you are the one talking shit (twice, in one sentence!).

Suggesting the West tries to find a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict does not make one an “Islam loving idiot”.

As it happens, I’m often in Israel, and support it’s existence. But many Israelis recognise the situation can’t go on like this. I’ve also travelled in the Arab world and it doesn’t take long to pick up on the fact that Israel is a major grievance (it does not follow that most Muslims want it destroyed, they just want a different approach).

Suggesting the West tries to find a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict does not make one an “Islam loving idiot”.

i was talking about some of the posters on here.

Does anyone outside of IS really understand what their end game is? I’ve seen lots over the past couple of years but it somehow doesn’t ring true or contradicts itself at times.

Read an article at the weekend (linked to elsewhere on this forum now) that made me sit back & think a lot more than the usual stuff metered out by the press & western gov’ts: What ISIS Really Want[/url]

Not sure what I believe (or don’t) anymore but doubt that any ‘concession’ made to them will change their intensions nor actions.

Possibly, but I saw an item on TV about ISIS predilection for Hi-Lux trucks. Apparently Toyota are not happy with the publicity.

They UK Army used to refer to them as the ‘Toyota Taliban’ in Afganistan – “The go where you like, do what you like, take what you like truck”

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

There was a feature on BBC news a few weeks back about how ISIS is funded. It’s a very rich war machine who has plundered it’s way through Iraq and Syria, taking gold and cask from banks and more importantly oil fields. How does it sell the oil? Much off it gets sold to it’s enemy Assad.
Funding from Saudi Arabia may have helped get ISIS started but it’s not required now.

Hard to know what IS wants and, let us not forget in the heat of the current crisis, they are merely the latest enemy of the West.

There is no doubt US (and Allies including UK and France) foreign policy, especially in Iraq in 2003 created the perfect conditions for radicalisation, but the picture is very complex.

Good article here: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

Trying Blair as a war criminal might be a suitable act of contrition.

What is also clear, but not widely discussed, despite being at the heart of the diaspora, is the opposition of Western laws, values and freedoms by even ‘non extreme’ sectors of Islam. Principally:
– Women, their equality
– Homosexuals, tolerance of
– Plus other stuff including Alcohol, Pork etc.

What is ‘radical’ any way? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

ISIS is just one of many Islamist movements that have emerged from the politicisation of Islam by writers like Sayyid Qutb earlier in the twentieth century.
Qutb’s writing essentially imported ideas of permanent world revolution from Lenin and applied it to Islam. One of my lecturers at university once called Qutb’s writings “ecuminically unhelpful” – but he was always prone to understatement.
The point being, radical Islam is an ideology, meaning it crops up again and again until the conditions which allow it to flourish are addressed.
So the West could go in and decimate ISIS, but another radical Islamist group would quickly emerge (like a bacterial, they seem to get more lethal with each new strain).

Indeed a worrying time for moderate Muslims.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word ‘moderate’ in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them with lazy bigotry.

Hard to know what IS wants

I’m not sure it is. Seems pretty obvious to me that the IS strategy is not too far off what the nazis strategy was in the 20s/30s. They want to stir up hatred and persecution of muslims across the west, so that those ‘moderate’ muslims support their cause. And from the lazy use of the term ‘moderate muslim’, the sensationalism of the media, to the outright idiocy of the likes of Britain First et al, you’d have to conclude that their strategy is working like a dream. It won’t be long before we’re embroiled in another war which will make previous middle east conflicts look like a minor skirmish. Scary times ahead I fear. Thank god I’m too old to be conscripted.

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

To be fair do we /our leaders?

If you really want to know what the likes of ISIS want and where 5hey actually stand within the realms 9f Islam just google the word ,”khawarij” or “takfeeri”. Google for Sayid Qutb the godfather of the modern day extremist. You’ll get a picture of who and what these people are.

I used the term “moderate Christians” on page 2 of this thread. It’s not lazy use of a term it’s accurate use of a qualifier used to indicate that those being referred to are law abiding citizens who play a positive role in society, don’t to impose their faith or convictions on others and don’t let their faith dominate theri every word or action. I’ll add “fundamentalist Christians”, “devout Christians”, “practicing Christians” and you can no doubt think of a few more to designate those who have higher levels of Christian commitment.

If the West stopped supporting Israel (which will never happen) there would be a regional apocalypse which would make the 1m people who have died in regional conflicts in the last 50 years pale into insignificance.

I for one don’t think the West’s support for Israel is the key factor in the rise of extremism. It’s part of the rhetoric but not the cause. Osama B-L and Al-Q felt the West had not done enough to protect Muslims in The Balkans, IS is part of the Sunni-Shia sectarian war which has been going on for a very long time. If you are a Muslim dissatisfied with the West’s support of Israel your responce wouldn’t be to kill 100,000’s of your fellow Muslims. Syria is in the midst of a civil war which hasn’t the slightest to do with people’s views on Israel

I think we can have a fair stab at what ISIS want:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

They even have a ISIS publication which spells out what they want.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word ‘moderate’ in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them wi

I’m not sure what number the minority is, it isn’t the 0.003% Gonzy quoted. Is it 5, 10 or even 25% of Middle East or European Muslims who either actively support or turn a blind eye to violence against their fellow Muslims and / or the West ? I’m not sure but it’s my view it is not such a small number.

EDIT: also I out “moderate” and non-moderate are not afraid, this is what they wanted. I don’t really care if they are afraid, I care more that they are neutralised either by imprisonment if possible or ultimately by their deaths

As I posted I seen numerous comments in the media and heard directly that the Muslim community particularly in Europe must do much more than it has been that it fully supports the open, free, democratic life we enjoy here and fully buy in to the value system which we have. Gonzy has always been clear about his views but some of the statements from representative groups have frankly been a bit weak. How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

How does it sell the oil? Much off it gets sold to it’s enemy Assad.

Apparently the Kurds buy oil from ISIS as well. Quite incredible, financing your enemy.

How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people.

dazh – Member

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people. Nonsense.

if you want to use the Nazism analogy,it would be better applied to the thought that moderate Muslims are comparable with non-Nazi Germans.

Who or what is moderate though? Where is the line in regard to democracy, gender and sexual equality?

This does not paint a very attractive picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgKMI1wV0ps