Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

People are insulted all day everyday. Right now it’s only Muslims who are slaughtering fellow Muslims in there 10,000’s for having divergent views. Do people think Shia Mulims deserve to be slaughtered by Sunnis for making drawings of Mohammed’s nephew ?

Jamby, proof or your just spreading lies to justify your own racism….

Do people think Shia Mulims deserve to be slaughtered by Sunnis for making drawings of Mohammed’s nephew ?

Obvious straw man, is obvious.

What do you want us to post as a response? Examples of recent violence by other religions?

Violence by Buhdist monks in SE Asia?
The rise of the KKK?
Atheist China’s crackdown on various religions?

Heck you only have to look to facebook to see some pretty disgusting things being said about non whites/christians for things as simple as wearing a headscarf or the building of a place of worship.

In 2013 there were TWO religiously motivated terrorist attacks in Europe. There were 150 that weren’t. In 2011 there were none out of 174! Globaly Islamic terrorism accounted for only 6% of Terroism between 1980 and 2005.

There is a link to report just above your post which was (i think) intended to excuse islam actually shows the vast majority of terrorist deaths in Europe in the last 15 years have been caused by muslims in the name of their religion.

Your other point about only a small proportion of muslims being supporters of terrorism has been dealt with by another poster so I wont repeat it.

There is a massive difference between a Jamba fact and an actual fact in that the later is true and the former is something you made up

As Muslims and Jews share the same books if the jews have to obey the law then so will the Muslims.
Do jews have to obey the law Jamby ?
I realise logic is wasted here as , others have noted, its just your bigotry at play here.

the countries that operate under muslim rule are authoritarian hell holes for anyone who doesnt conform

complete and utter bollocks..

get in the sea you ignorant little turd and stop spouting your daft made up beleifs to the world

There is a link to report just above your post which was (i think) intended to excuse islam actually shows the vast majority of terrorist deaths in Europe in the last 15 years have been caused by muslims in the name of their religion.

Your other point about only a small proportion of muslims being supporters of terrorism has been dealt with by another poster so I wont repeat it.

On point 1.

I’ll excuse Islam all I like you ignorant bigot. The 1,590,999,990 Muslims that weren’t involved in Terrorism anyway.

All that economist link proves its that a VERY small number of terrorist attacks are committed in the name of Islam, unfortunately they were very effective and distort the statistics somewhat. It’s still an average of about 1 attack per year.

You may as well draw the conclusion that the second biggest terrorist threat to Europe is unfortunately nationalism.

On point 2.

Maybe you should repeat it. Sometimes you can realize how stupid stuff sounds only when you say it out lout.

cool video with expert debunking some anti-islamic prejudices being expressed by CNN reporters (sorry if it’s been posted)

Ken O’Keefe telling it straight,…

^This. It boils my piss when my kids come home and start waffling on about Jesus, Mary and that cuckold fella as if it’s a true story. I ask ’em if they’ve been learning about any other religions = nope.

Err.. your schools is doing it wrong then. Unless they’re a Catholic school perhaps it which case, what exactly did you expect?

Indeed :lol:

My daughter’s school is a Church maintained CofE school, with 50% of its intake going to churchgoing cardcarrying families. I was worried about whether that would lead to bias, as while we have nothing against religion or religious types, only against bigotry of all flavours – neither my wife nor I wanted indoctrination.

We have been incredibly pleased with the way RE has been taught so far. Very even handed. And yes, they do have an act of worship most days, as part of their usual assemblies but the actual worship bit is a fraction of it, alongside the general housekeeping and keeping score of house points and the like. And if you don’t want to worship – then just stay quiet and respect those that do for the 2 minutes it takes.

jambalaya – Member

@kimbers, it’s a fact.

JAMBAFACT.

So where exactly in the qu’ran does it say “You must not respect the laws of the land”

START THE CLOCK!

VERY small number of terrorist attacks are committed in the name of Islam, unfortunately they were very effective and distort the statistics somewhat. It’s still an average of about 1 attack per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

Banding about titles of posters being “ignorant” on a thread like this is as cheap a shot as having a go a Hora for buying another poorly sized bike :D It appears even our “Western” government are ignorant of a lot of things, probably to protect our own interests as much as anything. Who here is honestly so clued up and has such a great solution for everyone that they can claim to not have a certain level of ignorance of some issues?

Which is why I come back to asking, what do “we” wish to achieve following the atrocious attacks like those in Paris? Even before the other posters questions of what to do- what is our goal? Protect our own interests seems as good a general guess as any, just like any other nation regardless of which values, society or beliefs they hold dear???

Err.. your schools is doing it wrong then. Unless they’re a Catholic school perhaps it which case, what exactly did you expect?

Nope. Standard school.

Who here is honestly so clued up and has such a great solution for everyone that they can claim to not have a certain level of ignorance of some issues?

I see what you’re getting that.. but for me there’s a line that people cross when they just start spouting blatant islamophobic bullshit that doesn’t even have an iota of truth to it

monkeyfudger:

I’m a parent governor of a C of E school (SIAMS inspected). All major religions are taught & explored there, though of course the worship and festivals celebrated are primarily (possibly only, I’d have to check) Christian.

Mrs B is RE co ordinator for her primary. Again, all major religions are taught, the likes of Diwali are celebrated as her school is of no religious persuasion but of way higher ethnic and religious diversity.

Your school are doing it wrong and you should raise it with the class teacher or RE coordinator in the first instance. The two of us are at best agnostic, and my eldest makes Richard Dawkins look born again but an understanding of world faiths is pretty important even if it only expands tolerance.

VERY small number of terrorist attacks are committed in the name of Islam, unfortunately they were very effective and distort the statistics somewhat. It’s still an average of about 1 attack per year.

I rest my case

a) if I could be bothered to google to find a much longer list of other terrorist attack, but I’ll stick with a made up internet fact on that one.
b) still very few in Europe, or even against “the west”.

b) still very few in Europe, or even against “the west”.

Just in 2015.

January 5 attacks in France starting with Charlie Hebdo.

February Copenhagen attacks. A gunman opened fire at the Krudttoenden café and later at the Great Synagogue in Copenhagen, killing two civilians and injuring five others

April A 32-year Frenchwoman is murdered by a gunman whose plot to attack a church is foiled shortly after

May Two gunmen attacked the Curtis Culwell Center during a ‘Draw Muhammad’ cartoon art exhibit in Garland, Texas

June Beheading in a factory near Lyon, head marked with Arabic writing and Islamist flags. Gas canisters planted provoked a fire. 1 dead, 11 injured

June Attack in Tunisia against two tourist hotels, over 28 people died.

August Shooting and stabbing in train traveling from Amsterdam to Paris injures 5. The incident is believed by French police to be an Islamist terrorist attack

October A NSW Police Force civilian employee was shot dead outside NSW Police Force headquarters on Charles Street, Parramatta, Sydney by a 15-year old lone gunman.

October Russian jet downed.

November – Paris.

Old Testament
Koran explicitly states man made laws can never take precedence over Sharia as that’s God’s law, preacher after preacher makes reference to that

Austria passed a law recently requiring Muslims immigrants to commit to follow state law. This upset the Muslims as they said Christians and Jews don’t have to do the same and the government pointed out that the Bible already contains that commitment. This law was quoted as justification for the car ramming incident just before the F1

Someone posted above to imply IS was the only Islamist terrorist organisation, very far from the truth Hamas, Al-Q and its offshoots, Boko Harim … even the attack in Thailand was traced to an Islamic terrorist organisation in China. I didn’t even know such a thing existed. 10,000 people killed in Iraq alone last year with suicide bombing after suicide bombing from both sides, that’s an Islamic tactic.

The events in Paris have forced the authorities especially those in the EU to wake up to the reality of the threat they face. French Parliament confirms today 3 month state of emergency allowing arrest and detention and full border controls. Some pretty strong language today from them about lack of cooperation from their fellow EU members especially regarding intelligence and border checks. I understand they have activated a EU clause which requires other EU meme rs to comply with any request for assistance

) still very few in Europe, or even against “the west”.

Surely even one attack in Paris in which close to 500 people are shot is enough evidence that we face a very real and deadly threat ? The events there haven’t changed my views one bit but they have meant others now take these threats and the required actions more seriously

Old Testament
Koran explicitly states man made laws can never take precedence over Sharia as that’s God’s law, preacher after preacher makes reference to that

i think we were actually after the exact passage that states this rather than you just repeating the claim with no more evidence- you are wrong on this point utterly wrong so dont embarrass yourself by simply just repeating it without PROOF

Again that is just your false and incorrect interpretation of events

FWIW it actually states that they cannot be asked to sin but it does state that when the law is counter to their teaching they must do the bare minimum requires to fulfill the law – ire the opposite of what you are saying- full account below

Should a Muslim obey the law of a non-Muslim country?

Answer:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Muslims who live in a non-Muslim country as citizens or who enter a non-Muslim country with a visa are obligated to fulfill this covenant of security which necessitates obeying the law. Even if a Muslim were to enter a country illegally, one cannot be excused for violating another person’s rights. It is a religious obligation for a Muslim to keep his promises, behave truthfully, and respect people’s natural rights.

Allah said:

??? ???????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????

O you who believe, fulfill all contracts.

Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:1

And Allah said:

?????????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ????? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???????? ??? ???????????

Fulfill the covenant of Allah when you have taken it, and do not break oaths after their confirmation while you have made Allah a witness over you. Verily, Allah knows what you do.

Surah An-Nahl 16:91

It is forbidden for a Muslim to betray anyone to whom he has given a pledge of security or a promise. Treachery is an enormous sin which results in severe punishment and humiliation in the Hereafter.

Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

????? ?????? ??????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ???? ???????

When Allah gathers the earlier and later generations on the Day of Resurrection, he will raise a banner for every treacherous person and it will be announced that this is the treachery of this person, the son of this person.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 5823, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi

The general rule is that a Muslim should obey those in authority as long as they do not command us to commit sins.

Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

????????? ???????????? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????

Listening to and obeying the leader is an obligation as long as he does not command disobedience to Allah. If he commands disobedience, then there is no listening to him or obedience.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 2796, Grade: Sahih

In some cases, a Muslim may be required to participate in something controversial in Islam, such as purchasing mandatory insurance. In this case, according to the principle of choosing the lesser of two harms, a Muslim should follow the law according to the minimum requirements if the consequences of breaking the law would be worse for him and his community.

Sheikh Salman Al-Oadah writes:

Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws and regulations of the country they have been entrusted though valid visas to enter. At the same time, they have to avoid whatever contradicts Islamic teachings. In case they are obliged by law to uphold something contrary to Islamic teachings, they have to adhere to the minimum that the law requires of them.

One of the best approaches for a Muslim living in these countries is patience. As long as he agrees to live in a non-Muslim country, he is never to rebel against the inhabitants of his choice of residence, even it seems too hard for him to endure.

Source: Islamtoday.net

Therefore, we should obey the law of the land in which we live as a matter of upholding our citizenship or visa contract. We should not lie, betray, or defraud anyone, nor can we justify violating anyone’s rights because they are not Muslims.

Austria passed a law recently requiring Muslims immigrants to commit to follow state law. This upset the Muslims as they said Christians and Jews don’t have to do the same and the government pointed out that the Bible already contains that commitment.

I will correct the factual errors first

Jews dont have the bible they have the Torah
Jews , christians and Muslims share the OT* so if its in there for Jews its in there for Muslims- that does not even make sense and i cannot understand why you have written it

Can you quote the part of the Koran or the hadith that states what you claim – no because otsa genuine true jambyfact rather than an actual fact
* simplified as they all have the same books and others- they are all the children of Abraham

So here we have Sadiq Kahn saying exactly what I am saying, not enough has been done to combat radicalisation whuch has been prevalent way before here recent attacks and that’s it’s the Muslim community that must do more as they are best placed to tackle the problem

And to defeat the extremists we simply must do more to stop radicalisation in Britain. It doesn’t just affect us in these awful moments of violence and terror. It is a cancer eating at the heart of our society – all the time. And if we’re honest – not enough has been done to root it out. And in this week of all weeks that makes me angry. Angry because for too long we have buried our heads in the sand.

I believe that British Muslims have a special role to play in tackling extremism. A special role not because we are more responsible than others – as some have wrongly claimed. But because we can be more effective at tackling extremism than anyone else. Our role must be to challenge extremist views wherever we encounter them.

To challenge this perverse ideology, and to insist that British values and Muslim values are one and the same.

JY the Old Testament is the Bible, it’s the foundation of Judaism. Ask your wife. As a Christian I believe the Bible also includes the New Testament. Either way the requirement to follow the laws of the land apply to both religions

The Old Testament tells us that governments are created as part of Gods will and thus we must respect the laws of the land as they are effectively Gods laws. Muslims do not believe is government as such, they believe that a religious person should be anointed as the head of state and a religious person follows the Koran, as such only Gods law has authority and a man made government and certainly a democracy cannot override Gods law.

It appears the keyboard warriors of Islam are as unpleasant as the ones who use guns, bombs and machettes on anyone with a different opinion.

Defending the indefensible makes you as guilty as those who pulled the trigger.

yes objecting to racism and islamophobia is just like killing innocent people in terrorists attacks. there is no denying the overwhelming logic at work for the right[ wing]eous
Giving in to hate makes you as bad as them as hatred is the enemy here, hatred makes people do bad things. Dont give in to your basest emotions like they did.
Extremism and hate is the enemy wherever we find it Islamic and western

Jamby- I was blown away by the extensive use of quotes from the Koran there and I stand corrected
PLEASE STOP SAYING WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS AND TRY AND PROVE IT SAYS WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS
Its really not difficult, even for you , to understand what is being asked of you PROVE IT.
Thanks for the appeal to authority but they are still fallacious and he is not really saying what you say as he respects Islam- again you cannot even make a false argument well.

Acts 5:29

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men

Just saying like even as a Christian you obey god not the law as you answer to god not men. Then again you possibly want to argue with the apostles

SHall I do some more

If you reply quote from the koran as repeating your ignorance a fact does not make

racism and islamophobia

Why are you conflating race and religion?

tell that one to the jews .. not that debate again

Junkyard, you’re banging your head against a brick wall here. There are some people on here with entrenched views so hateful and objectionable that I used to hope they got banned. Then I realised that they’re free to hold those views, even if it makes them deeply unpleasant individuals. Just do what I do now and ignore them, much of it is so ridiculous it just looks like they’re parodying themselves anyway.

Religion is just a mask that idiots on all sides wear, they’re all equally ludicrous fairy stories. Bad people exist and indoctrinate weak or vulnerable others, but if it wasn’t in the name of religion it would be something else.

I’m not giving in to hatred, I am challenging islam not its followers.

Its an uncompromising ideology which is irrefutably linked to oppression, hatred, predjudice and terrorism.
This thread is perfect example of the how people afflicted with the blind faith required to be a follower often use it to legitimise personal attacks in anyone who disagrees, here its name calling, elswhere…well we see the lists above.

The christian comparison is nonsense, we had a century of wars in the middle ages to defeat christian extremism and it plays little part in most people lives. They also are not bombing and shooting people in Europe who don’t follow their team.

ninfan – Member

Why are you conflating race and religion?

He’s doing exactly the opposite- mentioning them individually rather than combining them into one. Putting 2 words near to each other doesn’t mean you’re conflating them

The Christian comparison stands up, Wilburt. Bush tried to persuade Chirac to join in with Gulf war 2 so as to fulfill biblical prophecies. Gulf war 2 was a christian crusade in the eyes of the main protagonists.

I’m not giving in to hatred, I am challenging islam not its followers.

Its an uncompromising ideology which is irrefutably linked to oppression, hatred, predjudice and terrorism.
WOW 8O

WHat happens if you do give in to hatred then?

I am sure Muslims everywhere will embrace your message of love and understanding and reject their own intolerance in favour of your intolerance :?
:roll:

As i said you are just as intolerant as their extremists though you dnt kill for yours.

Wise words unknown but for the triumph of evil and all that ergo we must challenge them everywhere or at least just point and laugh

Wainwright – Head of Europol today

Database has 28,000 names of people to be monitored for possible connections to terrorism
5,000 returned fighters (note database has 2,000 confirmed names but Head says real figure is higher)

JY quoting from the Koran in a critical way is punishable by death, so I’ll skip that. There’s miles of column inches on the internet and hours of video of preachers and Imams on this topic. To humour you here is a piece on the Austrian law which I read at the time of the F1 attack. Note no such requirement is made of Christians or Jews as it’s not necessary for the reasons I stated above.

it reminds Muslims that state law takes precedence over religious beliefs,

link

A Muslim who converted to Christianity was beaten up in Bradford earlier this week. He got off lightly as that’s punishable by death too. The Jewish teacher attacked in Marseille was stabbed by a man wearing an IS sympathising T-shirt and carrying a picture of the French soldier who shot the school kids in Toulouse – reported on Sky news earlier.

I have many Muslim friends and business associates and we are able to speak openly about these issues. Far more so than some of the internet warriors are able to here, most I would add not under their real names.

“Some of my best friends are Muslims” :lol:

Saddam was a ‘weddings and funerals’ Muslim. He certainly wasn’t a fundamentalist…I cant argue about this all day, but under Saddam there was a state where you could get on regardless of religion

I didn’t say Hussein was a fundamentalist. I said Iraq wasn’t a secular state. It patently wasn’t secular when Islam was the state religion.

The idea that religion was irrelevant under Hussein is nonsense. The Baha’i, Yazidi and Shias were all particularly repressed. And as for the Jews…

wars in the middle ages to defeat christian extremism and it plays little part in most people lives. They also are not bombing and shooting people in Europe who don’t follow their team.

How’s that? We had two hundred years of pogroms in Europe that ended in seven million non-Christians being murdered by Christian bigots within living memory. We also had 8,000 Muslims being systematically murdered by a different set of Christian bigots even more recently than that.

Why is it that the people so assured of the superiority of our Christian culture are so ignorant of its history?

JY quoting from the Koran in a critical way is punishable by death, so I’ll skip that.

yes that will be the exact reason why you wont quote from it using an non de plume its fear of death rather than because what you say is not true and no such passage exists. FWIW you are not being critical you are simply stating what it says its a verbatim quote and of course its what all Muslim believe and do so its not critical is it is just the truth
Even your “excuses” trip over themselves and make no sense

Far more so than some of the internet warriors are able to here, most I would add not under their real names.

Yes I am sure you are able to go on endlessly about how they attack Jews and dont obey the law as they sit their respectfully apologising to you and understanding why you just cannot pin down the exact bit of the koran that states that. :lol:
I was actually reading your original part with a muslim. I cannot state what they said about your views as they would break the swear filter but save to say they wont be using you in an appeal to authority.
They looked at me incredulously and asked if this was a friend of mine,
I was able to reassure them this was not the case.

Jamby please dont just say things you cannot back up

We are indeed so lucky to have an Islamic scholar as wise as jambalaya on the forum. I had been under the impression that – like the Prods – there were widespread disagreements among Muslims of different flavours about what the Koran and the Hadith “really mean”, to the point where various groups accuse each other of not being Muslims at all. Now of course I have the benefit of jambalaya hajji’s scholarship (unconstrained by such niceties as reference to the text in question) I can see that all Muslims believe the same thing when interpreting a medieval book of fairy tales written in a language that no-one speaks any more. In the words of the man himself “they do, though, don’t they, though?”

Austria passed a law recently requiring Muslims immigrants to commit to follow state law. This upset the Muslims as they said Christians and Jews don’t have to do the same and the government pointed out that the Bible already contains that commitment.

Only the first four words of this are true. Everything else is a lie.