Scottish independence – hmm, a thought

The point about more people voting against the SNP is invalid, a lot of people vote along party lines. I don’t think whoever is Lab/lib leader in two years will be able to rely on that.

I thought Alec’s defence that there was no way the Scots could be held responsible for the debts of Scottish banks was priceless.

Apparently it was all Westminster’s fault for failing to regulate them properly. This from a man who repeatedly professed his admiration for the regulatory framework of Iceland!

Genius! TO use one of my dad’s phrases: His face’d stand clogging! 😆

The SNP got a higher % of the vote than the tories did. So those of you that say salmond has no mandate then callmedave has no mandate either.

Binners, dont worry, cos Scotland The Shetlands have got all that Oil to offset the Scottish debt.

Oops.

<ahem>

Zulu-Eleven – Member

and, I’ll ask politley, a final time and leave it there TJ

Zulu-Eleven – Member

I believe in a peoples right to self determination

Nice weasel worded sideways dodge into not answering the question

leading to

not exactly au fait with the term “leave it there”, are we? Could you be a dear boy and post up your definition as it clearly isn’t “not say any more on the subject” which I think you’ll find is most people’s.

So is there any chance of you actually giving up your definition of “leave it there”?
And on the subject of spouting, with the exception of one small island with a single inhabitant, perhaps you can provide some information on this mass demand for independance for Shetland that you and only you seem to be aware of?

provide some information on this mass demand for independance for Shetland that you and only you seem to be aware of?

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/5121-shetland-chief-calls-for-independence

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/north/183823-captain-calamity-declares-shetland-an-independent-nation/

There you go.

Mass demand? Thats one of the few pieces I could find and I have never heard of an Shetland independence movement.

The Shetland news does not seem to have any articles on Shetland independence and the guy on Forvick “captain calamity ” appears to be a laughing stock

@Wrecker

I think you’ll find that your 3rd link is about the chap who declared his own tiny island independent. He isn’t a native Shetlander either but a soothmooth. As per the comment on the link.

I hope the rest of Scotland does not think we are all idiots up here in Shetland. Captain Calamity has been a laughing stock since he came here. He is a soothmoother, a white settler and is certainly not speaking for the people of Shetland. It was just our misfortune that he was shipwrecked on our shores.

T

re the money

“The basic facts are that Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK’s total output and 8.3% of the UK’s non-oil tax revenues – but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 – or 10% higher – per head of population than the UK average.

What about revenues? The same source shows Scottish total non-oil tax revenues coming in at £42.7bn in 2009-10, or £8,221 per head, which compares with total public expenditure attributable to Scotland of £59.2bn, or £11,370 per head. “

(*OIL Tax bit.) If you add in a proportion of those revenues, in line with Scotland’s share of the UK population, it makes very little difference to the overall story. But if you say that more than 90% of the oil revenues are Scottish, as Mr Salmond would consider geographically appropriate, then you get Scotland ‘putting in’ £48.1bn in tax revenues in 2009-10, not £42.7bn. ”

So I think the ‘who pays’ will depend on how oil gets divvied up.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990)

Anyway – what are you going to do with all the public sector workers
“What is striking from this table is that 85% of the growth of 212.9
thousand jobs in Scotland between 1995 and 2008 can be attributed to
three sectors – Health and Social Work, Education and Administration,
Defence and Social Security. Most of these jobs are in the public sector.
If such jobs are debt-financed, whether the debt is incurred in London or
Edinburgh, this is clearly not a sustainable long-run growth path for the
Scottish economy. The difficulty is that the recent changes in industrial
structure and employment described above have become embedded in the
Scottish labour market and will have to overcome some formidable barriers
if they are to be reversed.”
(http://reformscotland.com/public/publications/scotlandseconomicfuture.pdf)

Mass demand? Thats one of the few pieces I could find and I have never heard of an Shetland independence movement.

How on earth is there going to be a mass demand on shetland?
It has to be relative to the amount of people there. Only a third of scots want independence, so that’s hardly mass demand either. A third of the shetlands is approximately 7300 people. Couldn’t be considered massive but still as entitled as the scots are. Possibly more so, considering that the ownership of the isles and nationality of the people is questionable at best.

Wrecker – Mass demand as in more than a few eccentrics.

gusamc – the oil revenues are in do doubt – the geographical split on the fields is laid down in international law and is already known.

Druidh has already put in a good post detailing the finances. Even on the most pessimisti reading of the treasuries figures Scotland would be better off.

Affordability:
According to the last set of Government Expense and Revenue – Scotland reports, Scotland would be running a deficit of around £4Bn (this assumes a geographic split of oil & gas revenues). Not great.

However, Scotlands per capita share of the UK deficit would be around £11Bn. This means that Scotland would actually be over £6Bn better off independent.

As an aside (as that is what it is) questions of whether Shetlanders or Orcadians should have right to self determination are irrelevant to the debate. As someone of Orcadian descent – there are some in the northern isles who feel little affiliation to the mainland of Scotland (citing political, cultural, linguistic, historical grounds amongst others), some who would seriously argue for independence from Scotland/ the rest of the UK based on these, and some who would raise such arguments mischievously to wind up precious imperialists who have an inflated sense of self-importance. Like I say though, this (like many of the other distractions aired here and elsewhere) is irrelevant, unless you are a member of the anti-allow-‘them’-the-right-to-choose-for-themselves brigades (of which there seem to be an unusual number on stw – even discounting the more obvious trolling).

Despite all the tiresome prevarication and petty nationalisms on show, the issue that really matters is an ethical one – namely whether a population should have the right to decide its own future, how they would like be governed, and by whom – whether that’s in relation to Scotland, the Northern Isles or anywhere else you care to mention, that fundamental issue remains. Pragmatic considerations and technicalities are all secondary and minor concerns.

Lets say for one minute that the 59 Scottish MP’s in Wesminster vote against a referendum – bearing in mind they are overwhelmingly Labour and Liberal
They were elected by the Scottish people to the parliament that has constitutional responsibility for the issue of devolution/independence/sovereignty
The SNP were elected to the Scottish parliament on only 45% of the national vote (ie. 55% of people voted against the SNP but they still took 69 seats out of 129)

Is this more or less of the votes than those you claim are legitimate? Go on what % of people voted against each elected MP? It will be mor ethna 45 % so the SNP has more votes than UK MP’s.

How can Salmond claim any form of supremacy, moral or otherwise, over MP’s that were elected by the Scottish people.

Is it becaus he is leader of a Scottish parliament and the others not…next you will be telling me the UK cannot have supremacy moral or otherwise over the EU…you will try that argument wont you oh please do 😉
Now you may not agree with Salmond but you cannot be so biased that you need to ask why he has a claim or a say.

if you take the “moral” or “mandate” argument as you wish to view it, what do you suggest is the correct position between the two parliaments?

Scotland gets to decide on Scottish issues of which independence is clearly the most important issue

if they hold opposite views, should the overwhelming will of those elected to the National parliament, Westminister, with legal responsibility for the issue, hold sway, or should the will of those elected to the Scottish parliament by a majority of seats, but a minority of the electorate, hold sway.

well they were both elected by a minority of the electorate so that point is false
They were both elected with the minority of votes of Scotland so your point is totally pointless

So, the argument on who has a “mandate” falls apart, the only people with a mandate are those with constitutional responsibility for the issue, thats the only way it can work, otherwise you get two different parliaments, both elected by the people, both having an equal claim to a “mandate”.

The problem is no one can prove which has the mandate as lawyers and experts disagree…either way [ and lets be honest no one on her eis a constitutional law expert]can you show me how in international law or even practically how the uk or dave could ignore a popular vote for independence whomever calls the referendum?

Really Junky?

2010 General Election Scottish Vote

Labour – 1,035,528
Liberal Democrat – 465,471
Scottish National Party – 491,386
Conservative – 412,855

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm

2011 Scottish Parliament Election Vote Breakdown:

SNP – 902,915
Liberal Democrat – 630,461
Conservative- 276,652

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_general_election,_2011

So, Sorry mate – but the Westminster parliamentary MP’s not only have a higher electoral mandate, but the Labour party ALONE have a greater electoral mandate in scotland, and they are against independence.

Sort of shot your own fox with the electoral mandate argument, haven’t you? 😉

The Scottish MP’s elected to Westminister are the only ones with either the moral, legal or constitutional mandate to decide on a the timing or questions in a Scottish referendum, not Alec Salmond.

Junkyard – stop feeding him unless its a plot to get im banned for pointless arguing again.

We all know his arguments are bunkum.

Funny how they’re only “bunkum” when they happen to categorically prove you’re wrong TJ, whereas you’re happy to argue the point the rest of the time…

or are you just going to start calling me nasty names because you’ve lost the argument again 😆

The Scottish MP’s elected to Westminister are the only ones with either the moral, legal or constitutional mandate to decide on a the timing or questions in a Scottish referendum, not Alec Salmond.

Could be argued that the Westminster election in Scotland is coloured due to voting patterns handed down through generations and a fear of the tories getting in, a more tactical vote if you will. And that the Scottish election is more free minded in that respect.

Regardless, it’s redundant either way, neither the 2010 or 2011 vote will have any bearing on the independence vote. Which I think we can possibly all agree, should happen, whether you are for or against it. The question needs asked and answered. Either that or it will just keep coming back.

Possibly more so, considering that the ownership of the isles and nationality of the people is questionable at best.

But no more questionable,actually less so, than Wessex,Sussex,Mercia,Northumbria,Cornwall being part of England. But you keep banging on about Shetland,then post an example of some loon declaring a rock independent as evidence. Please try harder,actually if your selective memory is up to it,we could start with how you define “questionable”

I wonder, would everyone say we are representative of the UK on this site?

Pehaps we should have a staw poll and ask what Nationality are you (Scots or English) and do you wish Scottish Independence?

I think the results could be interesting..

define nationality

I’m English – I live, work and pay tax there, I was born in Fair Isle (*Shetlands)

Nationality is however you define yourself i suppose.

But no more questionable,actually less so, than Wessex,Sussex,Mercia,Northumbria,Cornwall being part of England.

Not true at all though is it?

But you keep banging on about Shetland,then post an example of some loon declaring a rock independent as evidence. Please try harder,actually if your selective memory is up to it,we could start with how you define “questionable”

Actually of the links only ONE was a “loon”. The rest were just residents and it’s pretty appalling that you are referring to normal shetland residents as “loons”. Your last comment makes no sense whatsoever. Been on the Buckie?

Sorry it took so long but i had to use your links not your figures as you missed out labour from the Scottish election and give the lib dems their figure instead 🙄 but dont worry there is worse to come

Sort of shot your own fox with the electoral mandate argument, haven’t you?

Well your original argument was to point out which party had which percentage of votes SNP only had 45 % and i asked

what % of people voted against each elected MP? It will be mor ethna 45 % so the SNP has more votes than UK MP’s.

Your figures dont answer that question anyway I will run with them [ well form source as you got them wrong]

What you appear to have done is show me that the SNP got a higher percentage of the vote than labour[ 45.4 v 42%] and you think this proves your point that they have less of a mandate with a higher percentage of the vote and this has shamed me? Thats utter nonsense obviously

Well a few points
1. Labour are not the government and even if they were their percentage is still less than the SNP vote in the Scottish election
2. The parties which came third and last [fourth] make up the govt and the least of these the tories has the most say – obviously it will be easy for you to explain their legitimate mandate – everyone knows that those that come last get the biggest say dont they ?
3. Combined the % of the two parties[ uk Scotland vote] is 35.6 % so still less than the SNP in the Scottish one
You appear to have attempted to move the goal post from % to actual numbers but this only works with the opposition and it would be stupid to look at this, as labour are not the government and this is quite a crucial point. So looking at parties in govt we get
SNP votes – 902,915
Tory libs combied for uk election we get 878326
So even with an attempt to move the goalpost [ % to actual votes] your point is still wrong the SNP got more votes in the Scottish election that the libs /tories combined in the UK election and therefore have a higher percentage

So still feeling smug?

There really should be a word for when someone post up a link on the internet that “proves their point when in reality it contradicts it any suggestions?

i) Apologies for the typo on labour, mistake, good thing I quoted the source, eh?

ii) Does not matter who the Government in Westminister is, as its the Westminster parliament that votes, both the government and the opposition parties, the will of parliament is supreme, not the will of the government. this is an issue about parliamentary supremacy between the two parliaments, its got little to do with who the govenment is

Hows about, as a suggestion, all English, Welsh and Irish MP’s abstained from the vote, and allowed the Scottish MP’s to set the question, rules and timing of the referendum? would you be happy with the outcome then – clearly they have an overwhelming (both numbers and %age) electoral mandate to express the will of the Scottish people 😉

Junkyard – seriously man stop arguing with him. He has successfully suckered you in to arguing a series of arcane and irrelevant points.

look at your own posting of the quote from Mark.

tbh its a mute point I think we all agree that the will of the Scottish people is the key issue who sets the question is a mute point tbh.

If the tories finish last and having a solitary MP think it will help show the Scottish people how powerful the union is and how much it serves them then let them set the question

TBH both sides are scared of the will of the people as they would probably vote no for independence and yes for devolution max hence the political bun fight to manipulate the outcome/set the question rather than letting the people decide. This is not democracy and i think letting the SNP set the question is probably the fairer option [more mandate that lib/tory govt in Scotland] as it was their pledge rather than anyone else’s.

As for letting labour Scottish MP’s set the question this is never going to happen but there is at least some fairness in this suggestion and it is not that daft for dave to do this ..a plague on both your houses type move but I doubt very much he will choose this route.

EDIT: If TJ tells you to stop arguing it is time to step away form the internet ..exit stage left [ naturally] …zulu you can exit stage right

wrecker – Member
But no more questionable,actually less so, than Wessex,Sussex,Mercia,Northumbria,Cornwall being part of England.
Not true at all though is it?

By your reasoning and troll/argument, yes actually, it is. BTW you do know where Buckie is made don’t you? In another nation state that was absorbed into the English empire without a by-your-leave.(by your logic) Bye bye Mr 11,look on the bright side, you are living through historic times…you should be proud,relax; savour the occasion and think how much you have personally done to sway any floating voters on STW.

Ha I’m trolling am I?
You’re a rambling mess. I take it you’re aware that the Norwegians still have a legitimate claim to the Shetlands then?
Who has a claim to Wessex again? Oh gone quiet have you?
You’re also aware that the Shetlands inhabitants aren’t all too keen on the scots as they were treated in the manner of which the scots accuse the English?
We are indeed living through historic times; and all of your bluster will amount to nothing as you know as well as I do that Scotland won’t vote for independence. That’ll be the chance gone for a good long while, too.
Keep gobbling off, all you’re doing is affecting your blood pressure.

binners – Member
I thought Alec’s defence that there was no way the Scots could be held responsible for the debts of Scottish banks was priceless. Apparently it was all Westminster’s fault for failing to regulate them properly.

Was this the same Slippery who was embarrassed by the publication of a letter he wrote to Sir Fred Goodwin, the disgraced former boss of RBS, that encouraged the bank to buy ABN Ambro, the deal that wrecked the bank’s finances. Promising “any assistance my office can provide”, he signed off: “Good luck with the bid.”[/quote]

Or was that Slippery’s twin brother? Don’t worry about NS Oil running out, there was enough sickly oozing on Newsnight to compensate.

So the leaders have been reading STW and the informed debate went as far today as:

“Scotland will be worse off.”
“No we wont”
“Yes you will”
“No we wont”

FFS – two years of this.

TandemJeremy – Member
He has successfully suckered you in to arguing a series of arcane and irrelevant points.

Two wonderful posts in two days TJ. This and the ‘people always want the last word’. Priceless. Worth a subscription for the giggles

If this is what we have to look forward to for the next two years then lets just give Scotland her independence now!

Scotland can have all the oil, all the gas and even Berwick and the Isle of Man – just so long as they keep TJ and never, ever let him have a passport!

I heard that Alex Salmond was ready to give up the 16-17 yr old votes and the timing of the election as long as TJ is repatriated.

Now that is a red line that will never be crossed.

TJ is Scottish and Scottish he must stay, regardless of the rising blood pressure amongst Edinburgher commuters!

British actually old chap. 🙂

TandemJeremy – Member
British actually old chap.

Quoted for posterity. 🙂

Never claimed to be anything different.

Nope TJ, we’ve taken a referendum of all STWers south of the border and the legally binding concensus is you are Scottish – and we are ever so grateful! 😆

You heard my accent?

Doesn’t matter – we’ve voted! 😛

Sorry for getting the two of you mixed up Wrecker,easy mistake to make, z-11 comes across as your slightly less shouty brother.

Cant be arsed arguing any more with you, but one thing does suprise me. You are on record as having an axe to grind about us, why do you care so much if we leave?

This should all be academic. The Independence referendum should have a single question “Do you want to leave the United Kingdom and become an Independent Nation?” with a straight Yes/No. Independence is not a matter of whether you are better off or not in the Union. It is something more fundamental.

That has been offered to the SNP, uncle Dave offered exactly that. Independence is the main aim of the SNP and instead of grabbing it with hands the SNP said bu**** off.

At this point you have to wonder if the SNP actually want out, or are they so terrified that the people of Scotland might say no and as such the whole reason that the SNP exists will disappear. Uncle Alex may be a smart political operator (probably the best in the UK) but he may have just been rattled.

If I was the opposition parties in Scotland, I might start asking the questions of why the SNP was not keen to have a legally binding referendum. The SNP manifesto only says that are referendum will happen, Uncle Alex has chosen when in the term of the parliament. If he is confident that the people of Scotland will chose Independence (for better or worse) then go to the people early. Otherwise it will just appear that he is on the run.