Scottish Independence… here we go a again :-)

And reading a bit further back in this thread I’m struck by a few things. I’ve spent a bit of time in Finland this year – a small nation of 5 million people. Do they feel they need to join back up with Russia, or go calling on the Danes, Swedes or other Baltic neighbours to form a “union”. Do they hell. Setting aside economics etc, why do these great ties matter? They matter today sure, but will they matter in 50 years if we split up? No.

I’m not passionately for or against but I find spurious “we need a union because we’ve always had one” arguments distracting from the real issues.

He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.

I look forward to a semi naked wee eck wrestling tigers and riding horses bareback which is probably more likely than what you say

The SNP have a leader who thinks that it is acceptible for politicians of other countries to be hounded out of Scotland if he thinks we don’t want to hear them.
A director for the yes campaign that uses language more at home in Flower of Scotland, and a justice minister that spent the duration of the England v Scotland match 14 years ago in a police cell for being drunk and disorderly (although he was not charged). They are not the sort of people I want taking us forward over the next 5 to 10 years.
The only person in that shower I have much time for is John Swinney, however he is a bean counter lacking the charisma to take the cause forward.

I am glad dazzlingboy that you have come to the consensus that social ties will be weakened over time, especially as Salmond recently went to pains to promote them going forward. He knows the ties will weaken. Makes me wonder if he really cares about the other ties he promoted such as the monarchy and currency. Nationalists will continue to lap up his hot air, when in fact it is lie after lie after lie.

athgray – Member
I will go out on a limb here and suggest that if Salmond gets a yes result next year, he will no longer have to tip toe to gain moderate support. He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.
I think it was our dear leader that recently drew comparisons with Eire by the way.

Dear Leader is good. You will have to bow to him the Salmon king and learn the new way of living. 😈

🙂

What i don’t get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?

Loads of reasons why it could affect you directly.

Politically, Scotland (and Wales) are thought different to England. Removing that influence might move the goalposts.

Financially there has to be a difference, either Scotland is a net contributor or it isn’t. Most likely is, given the resources.

Strategically, there are some decent energy reserves.

Lastly, I just generally like the feeling of the UK as is. Many scots don’t feel the same 🙁

Well, Scotland can be as independent as it likes, but it will still be geographically correct to call its inhabitants British.

That will probably rile somewhat!

he first few days and weeks will be uncomfortable for English people in Scotland.

my work and social group is pretty narrow as a section of society, id doubt id notice if i turned the telly off tbh.

What i don’t get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?

as scotlands largest minority, we have an interest.

what is it, 400000?

Athgray I don’t recognise the Alex Salmond , ,the SNP , the independent Scotland you describe . I don’t actually believe there’s any real comparison between Mr Salmond .the SNP government and Putins government. You are critical of Salmond on this website would you criticise Putin in Russia? The SNP had nothing to do with the student protest against Farage /Ukip ..As for the social media point these sites are not restricted by national borders and people use the sites they choose. .There’s some great points about the shared interests and values of people from similar social classes in the article Scotroutes linked to. For ne social links are much more weakened by parts of the media with various scare stories and historically by economic migration. .it’s inevitable that great distance between people changes their relationship. Economic migration will always happen somewhere.
(Edit)

I see a different SNP. At the moment they are attempting to hold centre ground to attract the undecided to their cause. I never said that the SNP organised the protest against Farage, however the entire incident and Salmonds reaction to it left a sour taste.
I am poor at cutting and pasting on here, however scotroutes political map of Scotland is quite telling. If have the same chip on my shoulder post independence that you all have now then I could argue that Scotland could be split in two just north of the central belt, as we will often have a party in power who are out of touch with large portions of the South of the country. This is before we start down a potential route of a breakaway Orkney and Shetland.

zokes – Member
Well, Scotland can be as independent as it likes, but it will still be geographically correct to call its inhabitants British.

That will probably rile somewhat!
I guess the same “little Englanders” that can’t accept the British Isles are part of Europe might have an issue with it.

This is before we start down a potential route of a breakaway Orkney and Shetland.

Leaving the rScot rather poor

I guess the same “little Englanders” that can’t accept the British Isles are part of Europe might have an issue with it.

It irked you enough to reply 😉

The central belt has dominated policy making of all the govts since devolution and the Scottish Office before that. This has been bad for both the south and the Highlands .I believe that the devolved govt is more responsive to areas outside the central belt Ret equivalent ferry fares being one example. I would expect to see further improvement with independence, though I think people in the north and south will still have to fightto be heard no matter who is in power.

Hounding UKIP out of any part (if fact all parts) of the UK seems fairly reasonable. Problems is where would you send their racist, misogynist membership – no one else would have them.

A far darker SNP shall emerge.

What utter shite.

As for watching Scottish tv programmes, you will still be able to watch what you want. Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That’s worth a yes vote in itself.

Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That’s worth a yes vote in itself.

You’re in fantasyland if you think you can avoid hearing about that in the sports section of the news in any country

What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.

What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.

*removes kilt, places broadsword back into the roof

**** it, if it means ridding my life of as much footy as possible I’ll go full blown local.

Im off to get naked and paint myself blue whilst deep frying everything

Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That’s worth a yes vote in itself.
You’re in fantasyland if you think you can avoid hearing about that in the sports section of the news in any country

Why? I expect the Scottish news to be regional news. If I want to hear about football south of the border, I’d listen to a relevant station.

Athgray – dear oh dear.

Far too much of the rhetoric is based round our dear leader, who I agree is a bit of a roaster, but also a very good politician. The 2014 vote is not a vote for Salmond, it’s a vote for our future.

How often is the premiership a top story on Radio Scotland? I can imagine the slight tinge of anger you feel when ever a news item from south of the border infiltrates your world. Don’t feel too bad nobeer, I have heard far worse reasons than yours for a yes vote. There are nationalists out there who are fizzing if Andy Murray is described as British, or the BBC weather map marginalises Scotland. I think many people living down south would be shocked at some of the laughable reasons given for breaking up the union by nationalists.

Anyway, I found these two interesting reads for differing reasons

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/aug/16/andrew-marr-scottish-independence-edinburgh-book-festival

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-chance-for-yes-silver-1-3042233

Why? I expect the Scottish news to be regional news. If I want to hear about football south of the border, I’d listen to a relevant station.

Because whatever happens in the Premier League is of interest to many people throughout the world, even the Scottish. Well, it seems that way, because I’ve been to many different countries, and systematically managed to avoid seeing it on the news at some point, even if it’s just mentioning the top four results. It’s a global league.

Sure, you can listen to a local radio station to avoid it, but you don’t need to be independent to do that.

As another poster said. Of all the reasons to want independence, that’s a particularly futile and absurd one

There are nationalists out there who are fizzing if Andy Murray is described as British

Well, he is. You can be as Scottish as you like, but, if you inhabit the same lump of rock called the British Isles, then guess what: you’re also British.

You don’t need to tell me that zokes. I think the Andrew Marr interview linked above is about spot on.

If I was Scottish I’d vote for it. I’d prefer it if they vote no, and the SNP field candidates in England, as I like their policies much better than any of the English parties.

What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.

well its better than voting No because Wee eck will become Putin

if you inhabit the same lump of rock called the British Isles, then guess what: you’re also British.

So you are now Australian and no longer British then and some [northern]irish born people will be a tad cross with that as well
this is not a serious point either laugh or dont

I think many people living down south would be shocked at some of the laughable reasons given for breaking up the union by nationalists.

Have you looked at some of your reasons 😯

There are so many non-facts circulating about this.

I read recently that John Swinney has claimed that Scottish telephone users will receive less spam marketing calls under a devolved government.

It’s becoming a sad and desperate formula. Pick an issue, claim how much improved things will be once we kick out the Westminster Uberlords. Really not sure how that will stop calls from India but hey-ho.

I’m waiting for the press release about fridges running that much better in a Free Scotland.

So you are now Australian and no longer British then

Well, in about 9 months time when I have dual nationality, then yes, technically I will be Australian, I suppose; but I’ll also still be English, and British.

And curiously, thanks to an agreement between the Australian and New Zealand governments, if I wanted to be, once I’ve got Australian citizenship, I can also be a kiwi!

JY. I put forward an argument outlining the erosion of ties over the coming years with the UK. Not one nationalist reply could satisfactorily refute this claim, with some coming on here and effectively agreeing with me.
I think an SNP led administration post yes will be like a Putin led regime in terms of style but obviously not policy, and yes I do think avoiding this scenario is a better reason to vote no than not liking the premiership is a reason to vote yes.

The one about mobile roaming charges going up under Independence was even better (particularly because it was made-up on the same day that the EU announced legislation that roaming charges would be reduced). Not quite as good as the “we’ll have to bomb Scottish airbases” one though.

They’ll also have to stop showing Balamory on Cbeebies.

Not one nationalist reply could satisfactorily refute this claim,

So you still agree with yourself – thanks for that 😕
FWIW it obvious the break up of the union will lead to the break up of the union the real issue is whether that is good or bad. The answer is just a guesswork [ from wither side]
TBH i dont think anyone could change your mind on any of this as it is not always based on fact [emotive reasons] and you have strong opinions on the matter – that is not an actual dig if it reads like it. Nothing wrong with strong opinions on issues and both sides have emotive arguments

with some coming on here and effectively agreeing with me.

Have you heard of a self fulfilling prophecy?

Re putin and premiership – they are both rubbish arguments but I should have added a wink as it was more said in jest than to debate which of these arguiments was the worst

Say it’s not troooooo!!!

JY. I am not taking offence and don’t wish to cause any. You are right in saying that I am not an undecided voter. I realise I also have no chance of converting some on here. I am fairly even handed on most issues but not this one. You cannot remove emotive aspects from the debate. They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts

they’ll also have to stop showing Balamory

What the story ?

See what i did there 😉

I’m not understanding why anyone would try to refute the argument that independence would result in an erosion of ties with the rUK. Isn’t that self-obvious?

You cannot remove emotive aspects from the debate. They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts

Well not really. People need their lives to be comfortable and easy, and that requires a strong economy. And the economy is run by charts and slide rules, unfortunately.

Social ties scotroutes. I outlined my feelings on this earlier. You can make what you want of the point and say I am talking sh*te. You wouldn’t be the first on this thread. 😉

They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts

True but this is a big decision like getting a mortgage or having kids. I would use a bit of both in the decision making process.

Many , on both sides, will just make an emotive decision

Personally, if could vote*, I would vote to leave as I think Scotland is very different politically from , particularly the southern parts, England and would benefit from greater freedom to do as she pleases rather than have to have Tory polcies despite not ever [ ok once] voting tory in Scotland.

* Scottish but live in England – to be clear since childhood so wont be painting myslef in woad and crying freedom but dont call me English either