Scotland Indyref 2

Home Forum Chat Forum Scotland Indyref 2

Viewing 40 posts - 3,561 through 3,600 (of 3,745 total)
  • Scotland Indyref 2
  • ninfan
    Member

    So you don’t want any sort of PR, you want over representation for Scotland, Wales and NI.

    Worth remembering that this is exactly what they have at the moment

    I think ninfan in your example NI would / should not be able to block – the other three together provide enough of a majority to get it thru

    3 against 1 the three always wins

    2 against 2 the side with england always wins?

    With the huge population imbalance its hard to see a solution that does not seem unfair in some way

    Thing is, that’s still potentially 19% of the population (S,W,NI) overruling the wishes of the other 81% (E)

    While even the other way, 2 against 2 is exactly what we have at the moment with Brexit…

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    The chances of a court like the ECJ siding with a nation/region seeking independence without the approval of the national Government are less than zero. Catalonia, Basque Region etc etc. As noted before the EU don’t even recognise Kosovo.

    It’s a flaky argument to say Holyrood represents the Scottish people on the Indy issue as they lost the Referendum in 2014 and had a bigger Holyrood majority then than now.

    As for the EU Referendum every Leave vote counted the same and our votes from North of the Border where just as vital as any other in securing the win

    tjagain
    Member

    give us another way then ninfan.

    I know the american system is somewhat odd but IIRC all states get a senator ( or two?) no matter their size.

    How about my second option then – senate is elected list pr ie no regional affiliation. Would those elected be partisan to their parties or their country?

    I think without some form of federalism the UK is dead long term but I agree its hard to find a way that would prevent England having its way all the time without seeming unfair on england. – dictatorship of majorities!

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    jambalaya – Member
    It’s a flaky argument to say Holyrood represents the Scottish people on the Indy issue as they lost the Referendum in 2014 and had a bigger Holyrood majority then than now.

    Not really true in absolute numbers
    2016
    SNP
    Constituency vote 1,059,897
    Regional vote 953,587

    2011
    Constituency vote 902,915
    Regional vote 876,421

    The SNP increased both constituency and regional vote, in percentage terms they increased their constituency vote, but their regional vote dropped a little. I’d put that down the greens getting the some the SNPs regional vote (A tactic I absolutely promote.)

    The mandate hasn’t really changed much at all from 2011(well it has, the ref happened which killed indy, but then brexit happened which legitimately put it back on the table).

    interesting survation survey yesterday saying that 61% believe the scottish parliament should have the right to decide on a ref too.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Federal UK would never work because it’s too asymmetric. Either way you cut it, either English representation always wins the day or you’re devaluing the English voter by reducing their representation.

    The US manages it in that in their senante montana with 3 people has the same representation as California with 3 billion

    Yes, but that’s a senate that also has reps from 48 other States, so no one State has a massively larger say. That would be like all the Home Nations having their own representatives at a much larger body. Perhaps a pan-European one….

    tjagain
    Member

    Good point

    split England into 6-10 regions? Mercia, northumbria etc? or a senate elected PR on a UK wide list so no / less national influence?

    ninfan
    Member

    give us another way then ninfan.

    One member, one vote? – arguably the truest form of democracy there is.

    Everything else is merely a way of introducing artificial bias into the system whereby one persons vote is worth more than another, how can that be fair?

    I know the american system is somewhat odd but IIRC all states get a senator ( or two?) no matter their size.

    How about my second option then – senate is elected list pr ie no regional affiliation. Would those elected be partisan to their parties or their country?

    who selects the list?

    Do we really want a party list stacked with political apparatchiks and flunkies – look at Sturgeon as the perfect example, rejected by the people of Govan in ’99 and ’03 but still ended up as an MSP both times because she was on the list.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    I’m somewhat conflicted by the list. I can see positives and negatives, yes it allows people to be parachuted in with out being directly voted in, but it does even up the representation. Likes of greens would never see the inside of holyrood if not for it. Converse to that is a whole raft of tories get parachuted in too, which while not my personal desired outcome, I can live with it, as well… it’s right that they are represented in parliament.

    the alternative is a FPTP system, with 90% SNP. **** that.

    There’s polarisation in Scottish politics right now, but least the system we have is more conducive to coalition government, something which i’ve came round to these days as viewing as my preferred outcome for any parliament. I’d rather all sides were forced to work together and compromise. (obviously has it’s drawbacks too, depending on the make up of that coalition.)

    Personally, I’d like to see an end to party politics and all MPs being made independent and the parliament run on an issue by issue basis, and make it easier for constituents to hold their MP to account and get rid of them if they aren’t performing.

    I think party politics and the like of the whip are essentially anti democratic, how can an MP represent their constituents if they are told how to vote be a leadership?

    tjagain
    Member

    Agreed Ninfan – both objections are valid but find me another system that removes the stresses and inconstancies of our current system? ‘cos without something to remove the democratic deficits then the UK will inevitably fall apart.

    irelanst
    Member

    split England into 6-10 regions? Mercia, northumbria etc? or a senate elected PR on a UK wide list so no / less national influence?

    Or you could split the UK into 650 regions and have a representative from each of those regions have a single vote in a form of parliament. Maybe we need to look at the regions, a situation where 15000 votes elects a representative from the Western Isles whereas 70000 votes are needed on the Isle of Wight does seem to skew things in the favour of certain areas of the UK

    Why should England get 6-10 regions, 83% of the votes cast in the last election were in England.

    ninfan
    Member

    find me another system that removes the stresses and inconstancies of our current system? ‘cos without something to remove the democratic deficits then the UK will inevitably fall apart.

    There is no democratic deficit – its one entirely within your own head because you have introduced artificial barriers, a line on a map, that make you think one lot of people aren’t getting their own way.

    Its the worst sort of identity politics

    if it wasn’t a line on a map, you could just as easily magic up an equally ‘unfair’ democratic deficit in your head over how black peoples votes should be treated differently from white peoples, same with religion, sex, age, wealth, disability.

    Where does it stop? Extra male MP’s because we there are less men than women in the population?

    everyones vote should be worth the same, its the only fair way.

    tjagain
    Member

    6-10 regions for england puts them in the 5-10 million population range which is a good size for goverance and also allows for sensible boundaries. thats the reason for that number

    So tell me folks – you have shot my proposals down with a range of objections with a range of validity

    Try something positive. Find another way to remove the tensions in the current system that are fracturing the UK. the UK simply will not survive without something to take away the tensions.

    PR for westminster would help ( not all PR systems are closed list) but its not enough. When the UK is fractured politically so radically then something has to change. Its not just Scotland. cities / rural vote in differnt ways. North / south do as well.

    If this link works the map shows it well

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-uk-election/

    ninfan
    Member

    Its not just Scotland. cities / rural vote in differnt ways. North / south do as well.

    more identity politics

    Protestants and Catholics vote differently too – should we give them separate representation in parliament as well?

    tjagain
    Member

    Ninfan – thats simple rubbish and you know it. Its not just scotland – the democratic deficit is huge

    We have a majority tory government on a minority of the vote and the tories have very little representation in the cities of the UK

    UK elections under FPTP are actually decided by a few hundred thousand voters in around a hundred constituencies under normal circumstances.

    We have unelected lawmakers, we have church of england clergy in our legislature but none for other religions. we have descendants of french invaders.

    How is this democracy?

    I thought you were engaging in sensible debate but not.

    Its obvious that our democracy is no longer fit for purpose in any form. So how to improve it?

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    ninfan – Member
    more identity politics

    As is forcing people to be british if they don’t want to be. Why is the line drawn at the UK border? Going by your logic, we should be heading toward a USofE, not Brexit. (something I actually agree with).

    As you said, who draws the lines? The people do.

    A call for a referendum is not de-facto independent Scotland, it’s a call to find out if the people have changed their mind due to Brexit. It’s a valid call.

    ninfan
    Member

    Its not just scotland – the democratic deficit is huge

    The democratic deficit between blacks and whites is huge too.

    Are you suggesting separate representation to overcome that too?

    Why is ‘nationality’ (on the basis of nothing more than lines drawn on a map) of any greater relevance in decision making than any of these other issues?

    Its all nothing more than childish and destructive identity politics.

    tjagain
    Member

    Protestants and Catholics vote differently too – should we give them separate representation in parliament as well?

    Church of england have but no other religion. Poor point πŸ™‚

    go on – make a positive suggestiuon because without change the UK is soon going to be no more.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    I do find it amazing that Brits never seem to realise that they too are Nationalists! πŸ˜†

    ninfan
    Member

    go on – make a positive suggestiuon because without change the UK is soon going to be no more.

    I’ve made one – end identity politics, make everyone equal, and everyones vote count for the same

    equal size constituencies would be the first step towards this, Swiss style direct democracy whereby citizens themselves can propose referenda at all levels would be another.

    tjagain
    Member

    PR or FPTP? cos in FPTP not all votes are equal. I used to live in an area that voted overwhelmingly Labour. vote for other parties there count for nothing.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    ninfan – Member
    I’ve made one – end identity politics

    should national boundaries remain the same forever?

    ninfan
    Member

    but TJ, that’s the very nub of the point, what special bearing does the place you live have on how you are governed? Why does someone in Glasgow need to be governed differently from someone in Liverpool, it’s an entirely arbitrary distinction, it bears no more relevance on the laws that effect you or the provision of services your family might need than your religion does.

    tjagain
    Member

    So you are happy that a couple of hundred thousand people in around a hundred constituencies decide the next government we get? You are happy that the SNP got ten times the seats of the lib dems on a similar share of the vote? You are happy that the SNP got 95% of the Scottish seats on 50% of the vote? that the there is only a tiny scottish tory voice despite them getting 1/4 of the vote?

    ninfan
    Member

    No, however none of those things are solved by PR, or any other system, because they all produce equally big disparities and democratic deficits in other criteria – sex, race, religion, sexuality. Etc.

    You haven’t demonstrated why a person who lives in Scotland (for that is what we are talking about not nationality) needs different provision or governance from anyone else.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    You’ve still to explain why British is the superior nationalism…

    tjagain
    Member

    PR does solve all of those issues Ninfan.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    The UK isn’t fractured, no more so than any other Country. All these so called divisions are whipped up by those that want to create seperations. Scotland had a vote and elected to stay as part of the UK. The SNP have no other purpose than Independence, it’s their sole reason for existence. Hence the continual attempts to create and exacerbate division.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    jambalaya – Member
    The SNP have no other purpose than Independence existence. Hence the continual attempts to create and exacerbate division.

    Agreed, still doesn’t make independence wrong if they can convince the rest to go with it here.

    Talk of UDI/going to the ECJ etc is internet nonsense, with no real basis in reality.

    I’m no great fan of the SNP, but what they are doing is perfectly legitimate, they are playing within democratic boundaries. People might not like that, but ho hum, would be dull if we all agreed! πŸ™‚

    tjagain
    Member

    Jamba -0 utter nonsense. the rise of the snp is a symptom of the fractures in the UK not the cause.

    Look at the voting records. Scotland has not voted tory for 50 years and we have had tory governments in westminster with less than 15% support in scotland. Lokk at the map I linked to of how the UK voted in the last gernarl election. the fractures are obvious. North south. city . country.

    ninfan
    Member

    Scotland has not voted tory for 50 years and we have had tory governments in westminster with less than 15% support in scotland

    How is this different from Liverpool or Birmingham? How is it different from Surrey ending up with a Labour goverment Propped up with Scottish MP’s – or for that matter Dumfriesshire ending up with an SNP in charge?

    “Scotland” is nothing more than a line on a map, there’s no reason that the voters there, or anywhere else, deserve special treatment,

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Tbh, I’ve actually got to agree with ninfan that there is no democratic deficit purely in relation to scotland, if there are deficits(which there are) they are common across the uk. That’s just the nature of a system that believes in winner takes all.

    Which isn’t a good reason for the primacy, forever more, of British nationalism. It’s actually an argument against it, if the UK won’t solve these issues, then well, we’ll just need to take them into our own hands..

    tjagain
    Member

    No ninfan – Scotland does not deserve special treatment. we all deserve a fair electoral system fit for the 21st century. the democratic deficits scotland has occurs across many parts of the UK

    I seem to remember you being very hot on self determination for the falkland islanders tho

    ninfan
    Member

    democratic deficits scotland has occurs across many parts of the UK

    But you miss what I am saying

    It’s false

    It’s not a ‘deficit’ – it’s democracy

    Your reliance on geography is an enigma – it’s just another fake identity that seeks to differentiate between people.

    What I am saying is that if, for example, Scotland became independent, you wouldn’t magically transfer into some utopia whereby everyone was equal and the ‘democratic deficit’ would disappear, if you were all Scottish, there would be new and alternative democratic deficits created by the very nature of identity politics – how long before the Orkadians are whinging about their democratic deficit, being ruled by the central belt? How long before the Scottish Asian community feel they are being treated unfairly, that it can only be corrected by giving them a veto, or perhaps their own legislation and court system?

    Once you accept identity politics, you head off down a slippery slope that encourages and can only be resolved by the fracturing of society to its lowest level, because there will always be someone who’s imagined grievance makes them cry out for special tretat,ent.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Once you accept identity politics, you head off down a slippery slope that encourages and can only be resolved by the fracturing of society to its lowest level, because there will always be someone who’s imagined grievance makes them cry out for special tretat,ent.

    thats brilliant, you are describing Brexshit and its effect on Scotland perfectly πŸ˜†

    ninfan
    Member

    Yeah but what has this go to do with brexshit,

    Well, we maybe shouldn’t forget what happened last time the Scots relied on Europe to help them out by pandering towards grievance based identity politics

    [video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BVeAz4Vzg[/video]

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    ffs orkney independence is back on the agenda, love it! πŸ˜† The identity politics was an interesting new take, if you ignore the irony meter blowing up, but i guess it’s never long till the same old bullshit rises to the fore! πŸ˜†

    piemonster
    Member

    In some respects I agree with Ninfan (starts crying) in that there nothing wrong with the Scottish Electorate not getting what they want in a U.K. context. It’s just simple numbers.

    But in a UK context you can’t really use identity politics against the independence movement because, as noted above, the cost of replacing irony meters would bankrupt the country.

    If you want Scotland to get it own choices enacted then Scotland needs to leave the union. Creating a system where the overwhelming majority can be over ruled by a minority is not a democratic solution. The balance of votes by country is too far out.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    But in a UK context you can’t really use identity politics against the independence movement because, as noted above, the cost of replacing irony meters would bankrupt the country.

    Its almost as if project fear, was actually telling the truth after all

    even ninfan is now arguing that brexshit has made Scottish independence inevitable

    DrJ
    Member

    All these so called divisions are whipped up by those that want to create seperations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/01/asylum-seeker-fights-for-life-after-hate-attack-in-london

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    DrJ those sort of incidents occurr all over Europe. They are sadly a reflection of today’s society.

Viewing 40 posts - 3,561 through 3,600 (of 3,745 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.