Saving circa 500g on wheels………

He’s said lighter wheels feel faster, no evidence they are faster.

I say that too…

Rotating mass in bicycle wheels has an insignificant effect, however often the myth is repeated.
If anyone can show it makes a difference, rather than claiming it does, I’m open to having my opinion changed.

TBF crikey me sober chum, so does non-rotating weight.

So in your world, power to weight ratio and rotational mass make no difference to speed or handling.

Hmmm, ok then….

Although this is only partially relevant (as previously mentioned, roadies tend to maintain a more constant pace, what with not having to deal with a plethora of gnar, switchbacks, locked wheels and localized rock and root shaped undulation) despite all your claims to the contrary, this evidence will do me, all the more so since you referenced it in your defence earlier:

Duh!! Heavy Wheels Make You Slow [/url]

Stop mis quoting me.

What is your point anyway? You’ve still not made one.

jivehoneyjive – Member

Duh!! Heavy Wheels Make You Slow

To be fair, filling your tyres with water could have other effects than just adding weight, fluid and gas react differently.

He’s said lighter wheels feel faster, no evidence they are faster.

I say that too…

Basic physics say they accelerate and decelerate faster Al, leave the science to the adults.

Interestingly enough, we have done this before…

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rotating-weight-does-it-make-any-difference-and-why

Thanks for that link – I checked and appear to have said it all on that thread already, so no point repeating myself. Anybody arguing that light wheels “transform a bike” please go and read my comments on that thread and explain why crikey and I are wrong.

The interesting thing looking back at that thread is that cynic-al appears to have had an epiphany since then, and now agrees with us.

Basic physics say they accelerate and decelerate faster Al, leave the science to the adults.

Basic science says the difference they make to acceleration and deceleration is so small as to be undetectable by an instrument as crude as the human body.

A lot of the research into mass V inertia, power to weight ratio and overall performance has been done in motorsport for years.
Basically, you can get the science perfect, have the optimum package, and still not see any performance gains.
Because at the end of the day, it’s the rider/driver that controls the delivery of the power/control.
This variable makes it almost impossible to ascertain whether a weight saving at any point of a vehicle will definately produce a performance advantage during any race or event.(lab results count for jack shit on the track)
You can provide as much data as you like to prove as many points as you want, but human error will nullify them all.

My advice is to save your money, and ride more to develop skills, train harder to build strength, and reap the rewards from hard graft instead of trying to buy performance gains.
The miniscule performance gains from “works” kit only really applies to top athletes, as the equipment is designed around [/u]their needs, not ours.
We just get sold the positive attributes of tech that helps athletes so far removed from “club” racers, it’s as good as useless to the majority of us.
A lighter, more responsive chassis can’t deliver if the power plant isn’t up to the job. So work on the engine first, then consider tweeking the peripherals to fine tune performance.
You know it makes sense, he who dares!!

I’m really unsure how spending £200 can save you 500g anywhere other than wheels

Not even by spending that on some exercise coaching and nutitional advice?

Dougie, skywalker et al, if you’re going in with the childish insults, how about actually reading and perhaps even trying to understand my point?

Presuming you are capable of that, of course.

Aracer…I’d hope we’re all capable of admitting when we get it wrong…

When I bought my Hope wheelset they were not only lighter, they roll better and have lasted forever. Good wheels are an investment worth paying for. Some people have mentioned saving overall weight. My endura singletrack shorts weigh 500g. Can’t say I ride any quicker without them just thought id mention it.

You know when you wish you hadn’t started something?

Yeah that 😳 😕

😆

Hope/Stan’s wheels made me faster. Prove otherwise.

My endura singletrack shorts weigh 500g. Can’t say I ride any quicker without them just thought id mention it.

Sadly for me it’s the kilo and a bit cradled at the front of my shorts that slows me down………….. 😛

A few people get out the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Everyone can see you started the childish insults Al, likely because you are unable to explain your thinking. Looking at the other thread its obvious that you really don’t know what to believe 🙄

The way I see it in lamens terms is the bike will accelerate faster, ie be snappier off the mark and handle better due to the lower lower weight, but it’s not going to add any significant speed, especially with the nature of off road riding

Dug, if you can’t understand my point, or that I’ve read the evidence and changed my position (I can accept you’re incapable of the former at least), should I care? Cos I don’t.

To paraphrase a legend: I’m right, and you know I am, best leave it.

Blimey! Having just fitted hope hoops / crest / nobby nics and saved 760g over the existing wheel/tyre set up I would suggest that I can definitely feel a difference in the way the bike rides. As to whether that translates to ‘faster’; I’m not one for higher level maths, but given that the only power available is human, any small improvements to the mechanical elements must help. Acceleration has been mentioned, but gyroscopic effect will also be diminished by moving to a lighter wheelset. Just try holding your old (heavy) front wheel at arms length with it spinning, and tilt it from the vertical toward the horizontal. Then compare it with your new (lighter set). Then consider how many times you initiate that tilting action on the trail. Over a decent distance, I think that the slightly lower fatigue-inducing effects of both accelerating, decelerating and compensating for gyroscopic effect probably leaves the rider with lighter wheels (bike) in a better physical state, therefore able to go faster further with his (her) given limited resources. (throws two cents on the bandwagon before it rolls over him..)

Start thinking about the change in weight from the perspective of total weight; bike+rider+kit…

..you have to accelerate all of it, so a reduction of 760 grammes from ?100 kgs…

Ignoring the discussion if the effect of saving rotating weight makes a significant difference or not…

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

…and even the article referred to by crikey mentioned that rotational weight becomes more significant under acceleration. Off-roaders tend to accelerate quite a bit compared to roadies, right?! So what might not be significant in some circumstances might be (more) significant for the OP’s endurance race. While at the same time the wiki article stated that the measurable difference is not huge and can hardly be felt. 😐

So – really – make of it what you want or what you do indeed feel!

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

…so ignoring that discussion for a moment – what I really don’t get are these repeated remarks on ‘rather loosing body weight and getting fit than spending money on parts’. Yes?! So what? Is this some sort of advisory board for naughty bikers? Bike watchers? Wouldn’t we and shouldn’t we all lose a few pounds? But was it the question? No, it wasn’t!

You could also always argue that one should just race for fun, enjoy the camaraderie and not worry about weight advantages at all…

…but that wasn’t the actual question! 🙂

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Back to the actual topic: I can feel it! I am a believer! And I am so so happy with my light-ish wheels (and tyres and tubes) as a result of this. It makes me fly! 😛

That’s the whole point though – it is only 760g but given the frequency of the accelerations etc, any saving is going to make some positive difference over the course of an endurance race – which I believe was where all this came in? 🙂

Ultimately what’s more fun, buying spangly new bike bits or going on a diet?

Exactly!

Crikey (and all other “disbelievers” for that matter),

1.
which scenario would you personally prefer:
a) (crikey minus 1 kilo) plus crikey’s bike
b) crikey plus (crikey’s bike minus 1 kilo)
c) “bah, it doesn’t make a significant difference anyway, I don’t want any weight saving at all”

2.
Should you prefer a) I’d be curious to understand why.
Should you also prefer scenario b) where would you want the weight to be saved?
If you go for c) you’ll probably state that it’s a function of weight loss divided by money loss times training time in relation to grmpfmpfblah…

Personally – and given the financial resources at the time – I would always go for b) (hock plus (hock’s bike minus 1 kilo)) because it feels like a huge difference when my bike is suddenly almost 10% lighter while it doesn’t feel like a huge difference when I am 1.2% lighter.

I mean, am I the only one who sees a difference in the unit that is being moved around (the bike) and the unit that moves around (me). A light bike just feels great!

And I’d still argue the same principle is true for the rotational mass: there are units that just need to be moved along (e.g. the frame) and there are units which have to be spun up AND moved along.

We could also open a thread on unsuspended vs. suspended weight by the way… 🙂

Read this article, nothing scientific.

And this about them switching to carbon rims

Roskopp cites multiple benefits of the carbon hoops for the team, including carbon fibre’s memory – its ability to bounce back from a bend rather than deform – the material’s help in resisting flats, wheel stiffness and lower rotating weight.

Now ask yourself why they are trying to reduce weight on a downhill bike.

Si – go & see Darren & Jonathan @ Strada. FRM/BOR rims are in.

Let’s leave my suspenders out of it eh..? 😯

I put lighter wheels on a bike some time ago and I ‘FELT’ a huge difference…..

So I don’t care as to the actual proved difference, (which I don’t think is quantifiable in feel terms anyway) I was very pleased with the result. 🙂

After all look at all the different bikes and components available, it isn’t possible to use formulae to see how each rides !

We could also open a thread on unsuspended vs. suspended weight by the way…

There is no need, I have already provided a link with a formula showing that a pound on the wheels equals two pound on the frame.

Edit: quick question

Two riders, same terrain, wind speed, identical fitness, body mass, muscle mass etc

One has a bike that weighs 30lbs

The other has a bike weighing 25lbs

Who will be quicker over 10 miles?

Hi skywalker,

my “suspended/unsuspended” was more about handling than efficiency. That’s why I suggested a new thread. While dreading another outrage. 😕

Regarding your quick question:
I don’t think that – at least initially – the “insignificant” brigade doubted the effect of weight savings as such. The main point was whether it’s significantly beneficial to save a given weight at the wheels or e.g. the frame, wasn’t it?

So high-jacking your quick question – if I may – it could come down to:

Two MTB riders, same terrain, i.e. quite technical XC course with up/down and technical passages, identical fitness, body mass, muscle mass etc

Both bikes weigh 25lbs and have the same spec, apart from
– Bike A has a 1.5kg frame (though same stiffness etc.) and 2.0kg wheel set
– Bike B has a 2.0kg frame and a 1.5kg wheel set (again same stiffness etc.)

Who will be quicker over 10 miles?

What are the 10 miles and how are they ridden? Of course the lighter bike will be faster, what is under disagreement is by how much.

Read this article, nothing scientific.
And this about them switching to carbon rims

If it’s not scientific it’s not worth reading.

Can anyone explain the science of fun to me?

I’d hope we’re all capable of admitting when we get it wrong…

Congratulations – it’s just that it’s rare enough on STW for it to be remarkable – especially for somebody who gets so passionate about the viewpoint they hold as you.

For all those asking “which is faster” – well clearly all other things being equal, the lighter bike is, we’re just arguing about how significant that is in a world where everything isn’t equal. I should point out that I have a lighter full-sus than all but a handful on here, but the most significant advantages to that are when I’m carrying not riding (which in a former life I used to do quite a bit of in races).

No idea about the science but I noticed a significant difference loosing about 500g from one wheelset to another.

I’ll liken it to the feeling when you’ve ridden a muddy trail and some mud builds on the side of the tyre (the stuff on the tread has flung off so nothing that would impact on rolling resistance). You hit some hard pack and feel that extra rotating mass in terms of slower steering and acceleration and it feels harder work especially up hill.

Erm, guys, this is about 500g on bike wheels. Aren’t we over reacting?

You new here?

You’re not like this on the other channel .

Lizzy just saw this and was like “what on earth are they arguing about, has someone had a fight?”.

I can be like this there if you like ❓

Is Lizzie new to the internet?

Well I can feel a difference between heavy and light tyres, tell me clever STW folk that know all…..is it in my head?

no one is saying that, try reading the thread.

Rotating mass in bicycle wheels has an insignificant effect, however often the myth is repeated.
If anyone can show it makes a difference, rather than claiming it does, I’m open to having my opinion changed.

cynic-al – Member
TBF crikey me sober chum, so does non-rotating weight.

To me that says you were.

I’ll tell you what, saving 500g on wheels is boring. You lot need to get out more.