Same old Tories…

I’d say that the tory ideology is that everyone is on their own and can only help themselves and shouldn’t expect any help from anyone else.

Hmm:

It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—“It is all right, we joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it”.

That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people: “All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!” but when people come and say: “But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!” You say: “Look” It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!”

Bit pointless arguing over who caused what.

ffs

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work. You can’t pay for the NHS and the welfare state if the economy is bust.

Actually NHS and the welfare state were created precisely at a time when the UK economy was as bust as it’s ever been. Learn your history jambalaya.

And the Tories far from encouraging and rewarding work have an uncanny knack of pushing unemployment far higher than Labour, and have a distinct preference for low wages.

Going by the graph guess when the Tories not Labour were in power :

Pushing unemployment up and wages down does not equate with encouraging and rewarding work.

Yes, I can see clearly from that graph that Labour were in power 1987-90 and 1993-2006

But this government is doing better

Actually NHS and the welfare state were created precisely at a time when the UK economy was as bust as it’s ever been. Learn your history jambalaya

You could try learning a bit of history, yourself. The welfare state, when it was set-up, wasn’t the huge organization it is today and didn’t cost anywhere near as much!

Yes, I can see clearly from that graph that Labour were in power 1987-90 and 1993-2006
😆

Graphs, gotta like’m

The politics of envy are so ugly. The Tories and Labour are equally spaced in my opinion hardly a gnats chuff between them. The recent debacle in the money markets showed quite clearly that, in matters of the economy at least, politicians are on the periphery.
It’s also true that without growth in the economy our business model fails, we have adopted a way of life that is basically keep running faster or fail and none of the mainstream parties have a way out. It’s simplistic to hold up political idealologies as the defining factors in our society, market forces are what really drive the UK. Increasingly people who can’t compete get left behind and that’s that. Labour or Tory it’s doesn’t change. Every other growth econnomy are educating their way out of this situation but we’re doing the opposite and I’m sure that happened under labour.

I can see clearly from that graph that Labour were in power 1987-90

No two million unemployment suggests the Tories were in power. And of course they were, despite having castigating Labour in 1979 for being responsible for 1.5 million unemployed.

The main Tory election poster in the 1979 general election :

Breathtaking hypocrisy eh ?

@ernie, as @solo says its not a matter of when the NHS was setup but how we can afford it today. You certainly can’t afford it if the economy is bust and the deficit is spiraling out of control.

I love the generalisations on here, like the Tories think everyone on benefits is workshy. Of course they don’t think that. Are some on benefits workshy, undoubtably.

@ernie the Labour party of the late 1970’s shot itself in both feet with both barrels, more than once. I remember the time well as it was the first election I voted in. I also remember well why UB40 was so named and he rock against Thatcher tours.

Loss without limit Ernie… Loss without limit!

Maybe when they got into power, the Tories realised that things were actually a lot worse than they had bneen told they were? A bit like the ‘there is no money’ note in 2010?

It’s simplistic to hold up political idealologies as the defining factors in our society, market forces are what really drive the UK. Increasingly people who can’t compete get left behind and that’s that. Labour or Tory it’s doesn’t change. Every other growth econnomy are educating their way out of this situation but we’re doing the opposite and I’m sure that happened under labour.

I’m not going to defend the labour party but last time I looked I didn’t see a particularly huge effort on behalf of the tories to improve primary and secondary education and increase higher education attendance. And the idea that there is no solution to rampant market forces is silly. There are plenty of examples of how an activist state can counter a lot of the negative impacts of the market and lots of research that says it’s imperative for the success of the market to have an active state redressing the balance.

But this government is doing better

Nice graph mefty, it shows that despite the worse global recession since the 1930s unemployment never went up above 8% under Labour, which substantially less than unemployment was in 1984 when the Tories were in power and there was no global recession comparable to the 1930s.

Now I’m not a fan of New Labour but I’m sure you’ll agree with me when I say that’s fairly impressive.

I say that’s fairly impressive.

What was it costing?

I mean, the tories could end unemployment tomorrow if we were still running a £167 billion a year deficit…

I agree Daz there are ways to do so however none of our representatives are even having that conversation. I may have been unclear I don’t believe there are no solutions just none being implemented!

The politics of envy are so ugly.

‘The politics of envy’ is usually a cheap shot used by Tories because they can’t understand that not everyone is as selfish as they are.

I’m not envious of anyone – I earn bugger all by the standards of most on here but I still have plenty.

Unemployment graphs are increasingly meaningless these days with the growth of underemployment etc. You measure jobs by FTE not by people, you don’t create more work with 2 part time positions than with one fulltimer. So add 1.4 million (according to the bank of england) underemployed to the problem- equivalent to an extra half million people out of work.

You also need to look at value added, when looking at employment- if the number of jobs goes up but pay falls, as has happened recently, that still reduces consumer spending etc- it’s a success in some ways but not in all.

@ernie, as @solo says its not a matter of when the NHS was setup but how we can afford it today. You certainly can’t afford it if the economy is bust and the deficit is spiraling out of control.

You said that “you can’t pay for the NHS and the welfare state if the economy is bust”. In 1945 when the NHS and welfare state were created Britain was broke.

In 1945 when the NHS and welfare state were created Britain was broke.

Irrelevant, it’s about now, not then.

Unemployment graphs are increasingly meaningless these days with the growth of underemployment etc. You measure jobs by FTE not by people, you don’t create more jobs with 2 part time positions than with one fulltimer. So add 1.4 million (according to the bank of england) underemployed to the problem- equivalent to an extra half million people out of work.

Aye, under employment, unemployment. It’s a dreadful issue. Still, it would have been much worse had we not had such great border controls and a system that controlled economic migration…
Oh, hang on….

Irrelevant, it’s about now, not then.

It is completely relevant. jambalaya claimed that you can’t pay for the NHS and the welfare state if the economy is bust. The fact that the NHS and the welfare state were created at a time when Britain was bust proves that to be nonsense.

It’s all about priorities.

No Tory claims “you can’t pay for Trident replacement if the economy is bust”. Why do you think that is ?

The sooner we get over this petty ‘country’ and ‘border’ nonsense, the better IMO.

The politics of envy’ is usually a cheap shot used by Tories because they can’t understand that not everyone is as selfish as they are.

It is a strange response to folk saying they want a fairer spread of resources in the world.

I have a vision of these people screaming at their kids. One is hogging the sweets and there these parents sit berating the other child, who wants a reasonable share, as suffering from the politics of envy. Its a really weak argument to put it mildly- its poor. I can see why they do not try and defend that scenario though but attack instead.

It’s all about priorities.

No Tory claims “you can’t pay for Trident replacement if the economy is bust”.

+ many
We have money they wont use it to help the little people.

claimed that you can’t pay for the NHS and the welfare state if the economy is bust. The fact that the NHS and the welfare state were created at a time when Britain was bust proves that to be nonsense.
No, it proves that things were different then and most of us have moved on.
OH, I get it, you want us to go back to the 1940s, cos them was the good ole days…
😯

It’s all about priorities.

Funny that, I thought it was about funding, money. You did catch Dear leader milliband’s speech the other day. IIRC, He seemed to think he needed more money for the NHS…

@ernie, Trident costs much much less than the NHS, what is it £3bn a year versus £130bn ? As someone else posted the cost of the NHS back in the 1940’s was a fraction of what it is now on an absolute and relative basis.

@Northwind, there are people who chose to work part time. Its no surprise average earnings are falling as the 100,000’s of financial services jobs which have been lost where relatively well paid ones. In terms of job creation surely its better to have more jobs created at lower wages than fewer jobs created at higher wages. One benefits more people than the other, no ? There should be tighter controls on the labour market and IMO an end to zero hour contracts but those existed under the prior government too.

OH, I get it, you want us to go back to the 1940s, cos them was the good ole days…

You can be impressively childish Solo.

you want us to go back to the 1940s, cos them was the good ole days…

Worst straw man ad hom ever
Its not what he said and it is not even close. Worse, it is not even funny.

You can be impressively childish Solo.
From the person willfuly ignoring the fact that we now live in the 21st century and instead is using a unique situation from the distant past, as an example to follow, today.
Childish ?

Worst straw man ad hom ever
Its not what he said and it is not even close. Worse, it is not even funny.
Junky, today’s self appointed Referee and model of impartiality.
😆

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work.

So why are they making the working poor poorer?

You are overusing the emoticons and sarcasm to make up for the lack of fact in your initial point and no counter to my facts either.
to repeat

Its not what he said and it is not even close. Worse, it is not even funny.
X2 now and counting

jambalaya – Member

@Northwind, there are people who chose to work part time.

Of course there are- but they’re not underemployed. The numbers I quoted aren’t for part time workers, they’re for people working part time who want to work full time.

It’s interesting the views that Tories are selfish, if we just assume, for a moment, that the average Troy voter is better off than the national average then they are actually the most generous as they are paying the most tax. The top 1% pay 30% of the taxes and all that .. they can hardly be selfish, they are bearing a heavy tax burden for the greater good of the nation, no ?

The top 1% pay 30% of the taxes and all that .. they can hardly be selfish, they are bearing a heavy tax burden for the greater good of the nation, no ?

The poorest quintile pays a greater share of its income in tax, than the other quintiles.

So it’s no surprise to see the Tories pursuing a policy that will make them even worse off.

It’s interesting the views that Tories are selfish, if we just assume, for a moment, that the average Troy voter is better off than the national average then they are actually the most generous as they are paying the most tax.

An interesting way of viewing things.

they can hardly be selfish, they are bearing a heavy tax burden for the greater good of the nation, no ?

Yes, they are clearly doing it for the love of the nation. 🙄

X2 now and counting

So this is the best you can do, so, you’re pedantic. As if we didn’t already know this.
Pity you don’t understand that I don’t care what you post.
😀

Yes, they are clearly doing it for the love of the nation.
Precisely, hence they vote for the conservatives. You should try it.

That makes your view of Israel look grounded and reasonable.

I don’t care what you post.

Replying to every post I have made on this issue is clearly the best way to show that you dont care.

@ransos – this is where some of these stats make no sense. The poorest are getting the same benefit from the NHS, education, police etc as everyone else but they are not actually paying the full price for it, no where near. We now have a pretty generous £10k limit before any tax is paid and there is no tax on food (unlike France) or rent and low tax rates on gas/electric (unlike France). We have a very generous system already.

Replying to every post I have made on this issue is clearly the best way to show that you dont care.
😆
No, I haven’t replied to every post you’ve made on this issue. Please be accurate and no, again, me posting that I don’t care what you post, is the clearest way to inform you that I don’t care. That’s why I wrote it. Obviously this is all getting a bit too complicated for you.

The poorest are getting the same benefit from the NHS, education, police etc as everyone else but they are not actually paying the full price for it, no where near.

Oh come on man go the full hog will you – poorer people are a greater burden because they get ill more often than rich people. Therefore they should pay more …..they are freeloaders basically surviving of the wealth of the rich who give so much for the love of the nation.