*waits for andyfla to cave in to popular momentum and vote for Margaret Beckett* 😆

Anybody care to examine the global situation rather than focus on local class war rhetoric?

Yes, please – and I’ll do a bit of history as well.

We are getting to the point where we are fundamentally uncompetitive as a nation. Ease of movement for global companies is now easier than ever (not necessarily easy per se, but easier than ever). We don’t make stuff any more – or more accurately we are used to an excessive expectation of the salary we should receive for making stuff. So the corporations go elsewhere. There are many shining examples of where this isn’t the case, but they are beacons in the dark rather than floodlights.

So, we are hobbled when it comes to the ‘dirty’ work of making stuff. So we choose, rightly, to differentiate ourselves by nurturing a highly educated, highly motivated working population who can compete in the more rarified air of high tech and service sectors. But we flinch from educating people properly because we are afraid of carrying that through properly. With university attendance being an elite 10% decided on by ability alone we go for the ‘entitlement’ approach. We don’t force parents to take their kids’ schooling seriously because it is too much bother and it doesn’t win elections.

So there you have it. We built much of the world we see today, but unfortunately we expect a “thank you” from the rest of said world and to rest on our laurels that were earned in the very distant past. Meanwhile a lot of world is getting on, accepting that they are at the mercy of market forces, making painful decisions and moving up the league as a result.

We sit in our offices, houses and cars without so much as a moment of thought as to whether this lifestyle is sustainable, or even deserved. Governments seek to put the brakes on reality as much as possible. Every 10-15 years the shit hits the fan globally, the UK’s position becomes untenable and there is a step-change downwards in living standards.

Until we realise that governments are not really in charge, then we are doomed to this cycle of crisis aversion followed by real crisis followed by acceptance of a demotion in the world ‘league’.

Solutions? Well, overthrowing global capitalism would be one. Or accepting that we need to make ourselves competitive again would be another. For my money (and as a tax payer that is not a throwaway line) we need to get real about the state of education and skills in this country, recognise that this needs improving and that some difficult decisions would need to be made, and get on with it.

The majority of pensioners are on modest incomes

True but their guarantee is double that of a single person looking for work – yet they remain protected. Explain please?

What never seems to flow the other way is that Ed Milliband is more of a toff than David Cameron,

That is because most of us are educated and aware of the facts.
Wow not even the Daily Mail would have the front to make that claim

Hitler ran a very efficient transportation system which carried millions of people across Europe by train.

We may just have reached the boundaries of good taste.

Just received confirmation of my 1% payrise. Less than £20 per month before tax. Which I know is more than many may get.

Suspect at some point this weekend I will have to listen to my parents complaining about their pensions, which total more than my income. All in it together my arse!

Suspect at some point this weekend I will have to listen to my parents complaining about their pensions, which total more than my income. All in it together my arse!

Careful – you don’t want to be written out of the will.

*waits for andyfla to cave in to popular momentum and vote for Margaret Beckett*

Good god man I have standards ! I couldn’t vote for that horrible woman if I tried !

Suspect at some point this weekend I will have to listen to my parents complaining about their pensions, which total more than my income.

what’s wrong with that?

Average wages which includes lots of people who aren’t the working poor? You’re using that to prove that the working poor are worse off?

If the working poor aren’t worse off, as you seem to be implying, then people on average and high incomes must be. Do you think that’s the case? You might find it useful to look at the ONS statistics on average household incomes and total tax take. It’s quite illuminating.

Suspect after care costs there will be nothing to inherit!

I did like your earlier post btw, some harsh truths in there. We probably do not “earn” our lifestyle looking at the wider world around us.

what’s wrong with that?

The complaining bit presumably.

If the working poor aren’t worse off, as you seem to be implying

I wasn’t implying anything of the sort, as I made clear in the next sentence which you snipped, simply that those figures didn’t prove anything.

Though thanks for the ONS suggestion, I found this:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2011-2012/etb-stats-bulletin-2011-12.html

Disposable incomes have fallen since the start of the economic downturn, with average equivalised income falling by £1,200 since 2007/08 in real terms. The fall in income has been largest for the richest fifth of households (6.8%). In contrast, after accounting for inflation and household composition, average income for the poorest fifth has grown over this period (6.9%).

But is anyone really going to defend tax cuts for the highest earners combined with cutting benefits for low-paid workers?

@grum The tax cut for pensioners will cost £150m. The benefits freeze will save £3bn. You can’t compare the two in terms of financial impact, the big savings need to be made. Even the Labour “mansion” tax proposal would only raise £1.5bn which is half the amount required to maintain the benefit payments. We have to cut spending, there is no other choice. The Labour party has agreed this too.

Suspect at some point this weekend I will have to listen to my parents complaining about their pensions, which total more than my income. All in it together my arse!

@MoreCash Well they worked their whole lives to pay for those. You have your career ahead of you and can hope for pay rises and promotions.

Solutions? Well, overthrowing global capitalism would be one.

As demonstrated here, there are many idiots who have been brainwashed into hating the poor and worshipping the wealthy to do anything revolutionary. Anyone who votes Tory who isn’t wealthy is just an oxygen thief.

So the richest get a tax cut from 50p to 45p in the pound, and this is paid for by freezing tax credits of low income WORKING families.

What you’ve got to remember is that to get the rich to work harder, you need to give them more, and to get the poor to work harder, you need to give them less.

Classic Right-wing ideology right there.

One thing worth noting in Gideons speech yesterday, no doubt as an effort to sound like they weren’t just punishing the poor, was yet another mention of his commitment to closing tax loopholes, and strengthening laws to ensure tax paid on business done in Britain, is paid in Britain. Particularly now they’ve significantly lowered the rate of Corporation Tax.

Seriously…. how many times have we heard him make vague noises about this? Loads of times! Its been going on since they got in! And what has he actually done about it? Well other than making a stack of HMRC staff redundant… nowt.

And to be honest I doubt the whole redundancy thing has improved matters much. Maybe I’m missing something?

What you’ve got to remember is that to get the rich to work harder, you need to give them more…

Classic Right-wing ideology right there.

OTOH to ignore the idea that increasing the highest tax rate can result in decreased tax receipts is classic left-wing ideology. Note that as with most of the stuff on this thread I’m sitting on the fence and not commenting on whether it’s true – however your position seems to be to ignore it or dismiss it as unimportant without proving that it isn’t true.

Seriously…. how many times have we heard him make vague noises about this? Loads of times! Its been going on since they got in! And what has he actually done about it?

I’ll refrain from doing “clever” editing and simply point out that they all make noises about closing tax loopholes and about efficiency savings without ever seemingly doing anything. It seems to be one of the standard easy ways to make unfunded spending promises. The trouble is it seems the people who pull the strings benefit from tax loopholes – surely otherwise it wouldn’t be all that difficult to vastly simplify the tax system.

I object to my parents complaining that their pensions are only going up at twice the rate of my earnings. When my dad alone gets more in pension then I get at work. While they moan at the possible loss of their winter heating allowance and free bus passes which they apparently “earned” while working, even though tbey didn’t exist when tbey were working.

I object to them being able to joke about sticking £100 a month in their grandchildrens savings accounts despite their meagre pension increases.

Actually, I don’t really object to any of it. For the middle one of 9 kids of a merchant seaman, who’s brothers went down pits or into shipyards, my dad worked incredibly hard to get what he has achieved, through crises as big or bigger than this one.

But if they think times are hard at the moment, they want to try having two kids to feed, cloth etc!

Anyone who votes Tory who isn’t wealthy is just an oxygen thief.

Why thank you, and the same to you.

But if they think times are hard at the moment, they want to try having two kids to feed, cloth etc!

and has a bike habit to maintain ….. 😀

The Tory party is just selfishness dressed up as some kind of ideology.

The one thing that does need changing is a simplified tax system. It’s not an easy decision as it would put people out of work, but it needs to be done regardless.

But if they think times are hard at the moment, they want to try having two kids to feed, cloth etc!

Really when food and clothes prices have fallen.

and the Labour party is incompetence dressed up as social responsibility?

hard place and a rock I think.

Where’s screaming lord sutch when you need him.

They are all zombie maggots.

No exception.

🙄

edit: you are merely voting for the zombie maggots that cause less damages …

grum – Member
The Tory party is just selfishness dressed up as some kind of ideology.

Do they even bother to dress it up as some kind of ideology any more? I think this lot are quite proud of the absence of any ideology, further than their own desperate snouts-in-the-trough grasping, and heartless no-such-thing-as-society cruelty.

5 pages until we got to “no such thing as society”

Well done chaps.

grum – Member
The Tory party is just selfishness dressed up as some kind of ideology. I don’t understand and don’t want to understand.

Prejudice from the left, oh the ironing.

Where’s screaming lord sutch when you need him.

He changed his name to Farage

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work. You can’t pay for the NHS and the welfare state if the economy is bust.

By the way the £3bn savings where to cost an average of £300 a family for those in work but on benefits. By my maths that means there are 10 million families on work related benefits, that doesn’t seem right ?

jambalaya – Member

By my maths that means there are 10 million families on work related benefits, that doesn’t seem right ?

I’m not surprised if that is correct …

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-time-to-bust-some-myths-about-benefit-fraud-and-tax-evasion-9520562.html

Just sayin’.

Prejudice from the left, oh the ironing.

Sorry yes, you want to starve the poor to help them – I was forgetting.

and now it turns out Victoria Pendleton is one of them

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work.

Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when they assume that everyone on benefits is a workshy scrounger and needs teaching a lesson.

Sorry yes, you want to starve the poor to help them – I was forgetting.
Pathetic comments such as this just write you out of the conversation.
shut the door on your way out, there’s a good lad.

The problem is when they assume that everyone on benefits is a workshy scrounger and needs teaching a lesson.
I guess it just comes naturally to you. Oh, to be gifted like a Trolgrips is gifted. Your indescriminate insult is very crude. Why can’t you try to imagine that you’re not the only person here with a brain. In fact, don’t imagine it.

So we should make balanced, sensible comments like this eh Solo?

the left, who are too busy crying about the rich and calling for Labour to rob the rich and duff-up the companies

Shut the door on your way out, there’s a good lad.

Grum.

I’m honoured that you have chosen to immitate my post. Probably the best you could do after your previous posts. Which kinda illustrates my point.
Thank you.
😀

The Tories ideology has always been to encourage and reward work.

Seeing as we’re indulging in defining party ideologies in one liners. I’d say that the tory ideology is that everyone is on their own and can only help themselves and shouldn’t expect any help from anyone else. The old labour ideology is pretty much the opposite: By cooperating, working together and pooling resources, everyone can be better off. The new labour ideology? Gain power by any means necessary.

Is it laughable that this thread suffers from various misconceptions delusions?

That labour is left wing. That Tories encourage work. That the Tor-Lib-Lab-UKI parties have a coherent ideology
That the gov’t actually has any influence over a global economy (they just take credit on the up cycle and take a kicking on the downcycle)
That professional MP’s (as opposed to MP’s who have actually had a profession) are competent to run the country.