(Road) wheelbuilding help

I think it was campag that did wheels where only 1/3 spokes were on the NDS rear, anyone use them/try this?

Makes sense to me as those spokes are otherwise under such low tension (especially on the then heavily dished campag hubs).

Am thinking of trying this on my 24H stans alpha build, as the tension limits are so low the build is pretty flexy on a regular build.

so let me understand you. you want to run 12 drive side and 6 nds spokes? surely your just removing some of the strength in the wheel?

if the hub was designed as 24h with 16 on ds and 8 nds then pardon my ignorance.

16/8 is what I am considering…or 4 x sets of 3 (2:1) and 3 x sets of 4 (2:2), giving 10:14, of course certain spoke holes in the hub flange will be empty, but that does not bother me.

crows foot?

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/plz-advise-ds-crows-feet-nds-2x-24h-32h-271010.html

Look at the lacing pattern of Neutron wheels.

Ta Macavity, good link. I don’t like radial on principle though so wouldn’t go crow’s foot (it would never have sounded as cool called d “chicken’s foot eh?)

“16/8 is what I am considering…or 4 x sets of 3
(2:1) and 3 x sets of 4 (2:2), giving 10:14, of
course certain spoke holes in the hub flange
will be empty, but that does not bother me.”

OK. but don’t you have only 12 hole on one flange? am I missing something?

Ah soz I’m gonna use a 32H hub.

I have a wheel built exactly as you’re suggesting! 32H Campag Record hub, 24H AC 420 rim. Drive side normal 3 cross with 16 spokes (just as if you were building a 32H wheel). NDS 1 cross with 8 spokes – not keen on radial with parts not designed for it. Not particularly hard to build and works just fine, and far more even spoke tensions – though in theory it’s less laterally stiff than a wheel built with equal numbers of DS and NDS spokes.

Back wheel in this pic:

There’s a thread on weightweenies about building wheels like this – I’ll try and find it for you.

I would dearly love a decent range of 24 hole hubs with rear having 16 holes drive side and 8 NDS but no one makes hubs like that for sale seperatley.

Fulcrum do the 16 2x DS and 8 radial NDS spoke pattern and Fulcrum is Campag in disguise. Also does anyone know of any resonably priced 254 hole hubs and rims as the DT swiss ones are not resonably priced.

bm0p that’s exactly why I went for a 32H…

aracer – Member
though in theory it’s less laterally stiff than a wheel built with equal numbers of DS and NDS spokes.

Cheers…not sure I’d agree with that though as your tension as you say will be more even, and on a low-tension rim this seems critical.

bm0p that’s exactly why I went for a 32H…

and it works just fine only using half the holes on the NDS – though it is another reason for going 1 cross rather than radial, as radial wouldn’t be quite radial.

not sure I’d agree with that though as your tension as you say will be more even, and on a low-tension rim this seems critical.

I thought we’d put to bed the issue about spoke tension and wheel stiffness? In this case the important issue is the bracing angle, and you’re effectively moving 4 spokes from a good bracing angle on the NDS to a less good bracing angle on the DS. I think it is one of the unusual cases where it’s stronger despite being less stiff though, and I did choose to do it that way in any case (nor is lack of lateral stiffness something I notice with those – though it is a rather stiffer rim than you’re using).

I don’t think you answered my last point on that thread…which was that some of the tension is used to “straighten” a spoke – so a lower tension spoke will be less straight, (i.e. at the cross, and possibly the hub), and this effect makes the whole thing non linear – especially at low tensions such as those required on a rim like mine (oo-er).

As less spokes on the NDS = higher tension on the NDS then the wheel gets stiffer. I think.

I read an article that suggested NDS should have thinner spokes for similar reasons. I think.

The spokes bending at the cross does make a difference – but it’s a tiny one. Orders of magnitude smaller than the difference due to the bracing angle. Coincidentally whilst I was finding info about this wheel build, I came across an old thread which has a bit of discussion of this very issue: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31757&hilit=nds&start=91

Here’s a thread with some analysis of the difference in stiffness: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36307

and here’s the original thread I got inspiration from: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25622

If you do a search on there for “triplet lacing” you’ll probably also find some more recent stuff.

While 32 hole may work and be durable to me it is a fudge because of a lack of options. There just needs to be more options. There is a demand for 24 spoked wheels and why I should be restricted to factory built wheelsets I don’t know when I am perfectly capable of building such a wheel my self.

Cheers aracer 🙂

I’m not sure that answers my point re. the washing line theory (tho I’m not sure you intended it to) – no study of its relative effect at low vs high tensions.

I’ve also thought of putting washers into the rim under each nipple to allow higher tension. I’d have to bend them to shape, but it seems ot make sense to me?

Er, I don’t know a great deal about this, so don’t savage me, but is there anything in the Mavic thing of radial drive side, crossed on the NDS?

My experience of 24 spoked wheels was very poor; the rear was so flexible that it rubbed the paint off the frame while climbing, and sprinting was simply impossible due to the flex.

crikey, it’s discussed on the 2nd of aracer’s links – one guy likes it, but the rest flame it I think (didn’t read the whole thread)

In technical terms it’s never made sense to me to transfer torque through the slacker spokes (I thought of that all on my pwn 😎 ), but mavic had their reasons.

Interesting…

I’m a noob at this, so again have mercy..

I’m using an old pair of Heliums on the road bike, which are 3 cross on the DS and radial on the NDS….

But on my my crosser I’ve got Equipes with radial DS spokes and 2 cross on the NDS.

All seems a bit tricky, and more to do with spoke type as well?

‘Normal’ spokes on the Heliums, steel bladed on the Equipes.

If the limiting factor is spoke tension and you only have 8 NDS spokes, the NDS will reach maximum way before the DS. Surely this will build a less stiff wheel as the DS spokes will need to be at a relatively low tension to get the dish right and not over tension the NDS?

FWIW I over tensioned my Alphas quite a bit and they were fine.

what you guys measuring spoke tension with ? This is something I’d like to do (I’ve built a few wheels now which have all been fine but I have been guessing with the tension). None have ever gone out of true and I’m worried I’m overdoing it…

let me know how it works with your disc brake wont you 😉
Not being a hater al just a joke
We all guess at tension tension meters are rather expensive and can still give erratic readings [ former is true later iirc is in the wheel pro book]

I use Park tools soke tension meter. It is in expensive and the wheels I ahve built have all stayed very stright and round. I use the tension meter to check the tension aat the end of the build to see if is even. given I build wheels that have less than 0.2mm run out latterally and radially the tension is always pretty even.

BDB the tension on the NDS is determined by the tension on the DS, which is limited in this case by the rim. Oh bugger I’m confused again…

Flap I don’t measure it, tho I have played a bit with the frequency of the spoke when plucked, I found an article on that that I don’t have te link to just now.

Interesting discussions on there, inc some 80s US made magnesium clincher rims, 285gm and drill-able to 215!

I’d love to get a 1250gm build or whatever, but finances & wish for durability will see me with a 1500gm alpha/tubeless set up for now…might expt with non-ust tyres tho.

Ti spokes tho…Shirley build a flexy wheel? EDIT – That lightweight wheel guy replaced them with steel for more stiffness…using heavier guage spokes on teh NDS in his triplet build.

I’m gonna post up about my 10/14 buil and watch their heads explode!

Yunki this is me road bike mate, too light for discs!

I pluck the spokes next to a factory built wheel – a bit rubbish I know but better than nothing.
That’s how we used to tune up in our old punk band, then when I bought a tuning fork found out we were all in tune with each other, but miles out from reality !

plucking to check consistency should be pretty accurate, and, as I said above, some dude’s come up with a chart for note (frequency) vs length.

But Al if you are reducing the NDS spokes from 12 (on a standard build)to 8 then the bias will swap and the NDS will have higher tension to equalize the pull of the 16 spokes on the DS.

In essence, you would have 12 DS spokes at full tension on a normal build but only 8 NDS spokes at full tension on the proposed build.

Not necessarily – you’ve forgotten the angle of the spoke.

Go on build it up then so we can get some empirical data 😉

While 32 hole may work and be durable to me it is a fudge because of a lack of options. There just needs to be more options. There is a demand for 24 spoked wheels and why I should be restricted to factory built wheelsets I don’t know when I am perfectly capable of building such a wheel my self.

It’s hardly that big a fudge – I can’t say I’ve ever noticed all those unfilled spoke holes. You’re not restricted to factory wheels at all – plenty of choice in 32H hubs. If you can’t cope with building a triplet laced wheel with a 32H hub and 24H rim, then maybe you’re not as good a wheelbuilder as you think.

As for the demand – just check out all the other people lining up on this thread who’ve built a triplet laced wheel.