Road deaths treated less seriously than other deaths.

“A lot of motorcyclists convince themselves that it’s careless car drivers who cause most of their issues”

I had bikes for a few years in my 20s.  I gave it up partly for the cost. I couldn’t run a car and a bike and a car was more useful.  Partly also that I thought sooner or later I would have a big crash. Not necessarily caused by someone else.  I had two low speed offs. One my fault. The other a careless driver SMIDSY.

Was just reading new cars will be fitted with intelligent speed limiters.  Yes I know speed isn’t the only reason for crashes and deaths, but it often is part.  Apparently people will be able to switch it off, which makes it a bit pointless but still it is a big step forward.

I see no logical reason to allow a normal civilian car to go faster than the speed limiter on public roads.  Sooner the tech comes in to remove the choice to speed the better

My current car has a speed limiter but I have not activated it. I don’t really know why as I don’t exceed the speed limit.

I hate it when I stick to the speed limit and then get overtaken.

“A lot of motorcyclists convince themselves that it’s careless car drivers who cause most of their issues”

And a lot of non-motorcyclists think they’re some homogenous group that’re all the same (like Daily Mail readers and cyclists).

In reality you’ve got everyone from boy-racers on Fireblades (or CBR125’s imagining they’re on Fireblades) to my dad pottering about the dales on a 1940’s Matchless hardtail.

Some collisions are caused by car drivers or just plain bad luck, a bit like car* on car crashes.

Some collisions are caused by the bike riders inexperience / stupidity or what gets called “lack of skill” but I don’t like that because it implies that at some point you have enough skill to do something stupid and get away with it.  Skill doesn’t get you round a corner on the road any quicker than is sensible, good luck that there wasn’t a slow tractor cutting the hedge just out of sight got your round it.

So if you ride motorbikes, and ride them sensibly, the odds of being in an accident are probably only slightly higher than those for a car driver.

So is every accident the fault of a car driver, nope.  Are enough accidents caused by idiots to their own detriment that statistically I’m far more worried about being hit by a car than any other cause of accident because I don’t ride like an idiot, yes.

To quote Arthur Ransome on the idea of letting kids go sailing:

“Better drowned than duffers, if not duffers won’t drown.”

*for brevity I’m saying cars /  bikes crashing, obviously these aren’t sentient and it’s the driver / rider that caused the majority of incidents.

Have we just normalized road deaths as inevitable consquences of using the roads?

Something about this situation just seems wrong.

Try to accept the fact that every day, people will die from a very wide range of causes. Some will be easily preventable, some will be as a result of stupidity on the part of other individuals, some will be as a result of stupidly on the part of the individual/s involved.

Brakes that actually work and cars not weighing a ton probably helps.

Are you still driving a 60’s car with drum brakes all round and cross-ply tyres, no seat-belts, air-bags and crumple zones, by any chance?
Because it seems like you haven’t been paying attention to vehicle development for the last thirty years. Cars have multiple air-bags, disc-brakes with anti-lock sensors, vastly superior tyres, much better crash protection, all of which adds a significant amount of extra weight to a modern car – try comparing an original Mini to a modern BMW Mini, or a Mk1 Golf to the latest version. The batteries in an EV add probably half a ton to the weight.
The obsession vehicle manufacturers have with introducing flat-screen technology to modern vehicles is, in my opinion, almost insanely dangerous, it’s illegal to drive using a hand-held mobile phone, but I’ve personally driven many modern vehicles with touchscreen technology that actually requires the driver to take their eyes off the road to operate them, having to swap screens and scroll through sub-menus to de-mist the screen, to increase or decrease the cabin temperature, to operate the satnav, to operate an infotainment system; I chose my current car specifically because all the instruments are analogue, the controls are knobs I can touch and operate by touch, it has an actual handbrake, and other controls or proper buttons on the steering wheel. It has an infotainment screen to show things like the radio or satnav but interactions are not required most of the time – once the satnav is set up, there’s little else needs doing once under way.
I’m sure someone will say ‘well, get the passenger to operate things’; possibly, if there’s another person in the car to do it. I rarely have any passengers, so where does that help me? Other than pulling over and changing settings, which, oddly enough I actually do, or wait until the situation presents itself to do so.

I honestly don’t think road deaths are treated less seriously than others, my local BBC Points West news covers lots of RTA’s, and treats them just as seriously as any other, even if there were no fatalities.
My partners death from a stroke a week after her first Covid vaccine never got a mention on the news, however, despite the fact that she was only one of 65 out of 3.5 million deaths from Covid itself. Was her loss to me and her family any less significant than any of the road fatalities?

Someone needs to take a reality check and go and have a quiet conversation with themselves.

So if you ride motorbikes, and ride them sensibly, the odds of being in an accident are probably only slightly higher than those for a car driver.

The odds are 50 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured. You can ride as sensibly as you like but you can’t control other road users.

I gave up riding as the standards of drivers is so poor these days you become an accident waiting to happen.

I agree with Count Zero to a point about infotainment systems in cars. My current car has a modest screen compared with some and I have chosen to limit phone integration with the car to make less intrusive and turned off all the distracting beeps.

Car company need to remove anything that takes driver attention from the road.

I had a Citroen C5 which was pre infotainment but had so many buttons on the steering wheel that setting the cruise control was difficult without looking at the steering wheel.

So it’s not just tec related.

So it’s not just tec related.

Interesting point about the tech because – rather like climate change – that’s the route that we, as a society, have gone down to avoid actually addressing the issues.

Oh we can all keep driving, we’ll soon have autonomous vehicles so no-one will ever have accidents again.

Our car is super safe*, we’ve built in an extra 20 airbags.

*to you, the driver – to any pedestrians, cyclists etc you happen to hit, it’s going to be way worse.

There’s a societal blindness to it. If there were 5 deaths a day on trains or planes or in supermarkets, there would be national outcry. Literally the entire industry shut down. Money no object safety measures installed.

Cars? Very much an “oh it won’t happen to me” attitude. And even if/when it does happen and you cause someone else’s death, chances are you’ll get off pretty lightly anyway. Which then breeds more of the complacency and “it doesn’t really matter” attitude. After all, how can a death matter if the person who caused that death gets a suspended sentence and 6 points on their licence?

Most of the people on the road try and behave responsibly, but there are a significant number who choose to drive dangerously, carelessly or impatiently who cause the problems.

These people are not going to change there behaviour without a step change in societal attitudes and strong enforcement of traffic laws and speed limits.

Look at some of the what car for threads on here, someone who want a car with 180 bhp per ton is not looking to behave nicely on the road.

I think speed limits need to be lower particularly on narrow rural roads.

Roads are for safe use by everybody not to show how fast you are.

A lot of motorcyclists convince themselves that it’s careless car drivers who cause most of their issues – the ‘SMIDSY’ accident.  That is a factor (although one that can be mitigated significantly with advanced riding techniques) but in reality they are their own worse enemy.  And I say that as a long time biker who is still in love with motorcycling.

Some of the worst passes I’ve had when on my road bike have been from motorbike riders. I’ve no doubt they drive in the same way when in a car.

I’m sure that negligent and careless driving of cars is responsible for the bulk of motorcycle deaths, but only because they lined up every hole in the block of cheese first through their own decisions.

Some of the worst passes I’ve had when on my road bike have been from motorbike riders. I’ve no doubt they drive in the same way when in a car.

I altered my route last Sunday (ironically the day that the 5 motorcyclists were killed in the Peak District) because of the sheer number of dickhead motorcyclists. This was in the Yorkshire Wolds, normally an amazingly tolerant and considerate area for drivers but the guys out on bikes were insane.

I got passed by an MX5 club day out too. Every one of the drivers gave me a huge wide berth (easily 1.5m at a minimum!) and a wave out of the open roof, their speed difference to me was no more than about 20mph. Motorbikes were doing 80mph plus and barely moving to the centreline to pass.

In the USA I’ve had a motorbike deliberately enter an 8 foot wide  hard shoulder to buzz me. Saw him coming in my mirror though so just waited until he was too close to change direction and swerved 3ft to the right.

I hate it when I stick to the speed limit and then get overtaken.

Preferable to what often happens – getting tailgated.  Then I drop below the speed limit.  Anything to get rid of the klingon.  Sometimes you cannot even see the four warning circles on their car.

In the USA I’ve had a motorbike deliberately enter an 8 foot wide  hard shoulder to buzz me. Saw him coming in my mirror though so just waited until he was too close to change direction and swerved 3ft to the right.

The motorcyclist sounds like a dick, but deliberately swerving into his path sounds even worse.

In the US, a swerve to the right is an avoidance measure, surely?

The fact that fatal road accidents are rarely reported unless en masse suggests that society “accepts” that level of attrition with regards to roads.  It’s tragic for those involved and their families but it would seem there is an implicit price we collectively are prepared to pay because if we were not it would be a matter for demonstrations and questions in parliament.  And that level of attrition varies over time and with regards to different matters; I was recently reading about the Farnborough airshow crash of 1952 when a prototype Sea Vixen broke up mid air and killed both crewe members and 29 spectators.  After clearing the debris the show continued its flying programme. Can you imagine that today?  But I guess that in 1952, just seven years after the end of WW II, flying military aircraft was acknowledged as a dangerous activity and society at large was more inured to mass casualties.

In the US, a swerve to the right is an avoidance measure, surely?

Not if you can see a vehicle in your mirrors undertaking you to your right.

I read it as the motorcyclist was on the hard shoulder, i.e. on the right of the traffic lanes approaching from the rear. So swerving to the right at the last minute would put you in his path, not avoid him.  Apologies if I’ve misunderstood, perhaps irc can clarify?

When the horse was used as the primary means of transport, the numbers killed in equine related incidents was terrible. If people and freight are going to be moved long distances then there are sadly going to be casualties. It doesn’t mean these things are not taken seriously, but they are inevitable. As people have said above, the UK has some of the safest roads in the world and the casualty figures have been on a consistent decline.

No.  I was in the center of an 8ft wide hard shoulder. Several motorbikes approached  from behind in main lane. 50m back one moves from main lane to just onto shoulder intending  (at best) to buzz me with inches to spare. I swerved right at the last moment to the outside of the hard shoulder.  Mirrors are handy. Also in the USA I once had to ride off the road to avoid an RV hitting me.