Road cycling – Big Groups

Rather than putting the same amount of energy into campaigning for better driver and rider training, better infrastructure etc.

I did ask about training on the other page but the OP (and others) seem to have just skipped over it…

Last time one of my acquaintances lobbed the ‘cyclists need to be educated’ bomb into a conversation I asked if they, as an occasional cyclist, had ever had any formal cycling training, and if they had thought about signing up for bikeability or any other training, sudden silence… I even offered to put them in contact with one of the instructors and arrange a group session for them and friends.

It always seems to be one of those things ‘other people’ should do.

Training and education for all road users is a great idea, but how you persuade people to sign up is a different matter.

I can’t be sure, but I am fairly sure all parties involved were racists as well.

Decent club riders ride compact in a group

I share the OP’s views and I lead club rides.

For my rides:
No groups larger than eight(four and four, through and off).
Call “car back” and “single out” on narrower sections for passing.
No merging if a group up the road is caught – ride through or stay back.
If there is an obvious hazardous road issue like that lane above, be prepared to give way.

But above all else, don’t think you have to apologise for riding in a group, but there is nothing wrong with being considerate – especially with the club name on your back!

Right just leaving work, goin to kill myself some cyclist 😈

Right just leaving work, goin to kill myself some cyclist

While clearly a Joke, there are enough ranty anti-cycling people out there that would take this seriously that it’s in very bad taste.

Over the weekend one cyclist was taken in a hit and run accident 😥
Poor taste ” joke” 🙄

I agree with op to, some large groups of cyclists and i’m talking twenty plus which happens around where i live most saturdays and sundays on winding minor roads cause major safety issues for everyone using that road.

Regardless of the size of the group, it’s still the reckless passes by cars that causes the safety issues.

Going back to when i was in a road club we used to have three groups, the fast, the medium and the slow group so you ended up with ten riders per group. It was a lot safer for everyone. I guess most well run club runs still do this.

This use to be the case round my way too, but uptake in numbers have led to some pretty large groups now on the more popular runs. Went on a couple recently and was pretty shocked at the disorganised nature of the group and the recklessness and impatience of some drivers. I don’t go on those rides anymore.

Went on a couple recently and was pretty shocked at the disorganised nature of the group and the recklessness and impatience of some drivers.

The two go hand in hand, small groups only for me and I never have any trouble.

Just put some relaxing music on then it seems ok

Oh I love Peer Gynt I do.

Go on flame me, from my blog.

The Club Run
Although this blog is for my personal use, this little post…rantette is open to and indeed welcome to comment.
The club run? I’ve been riding Sunday club runs through the seventies, eighties, nineties, naughties and now the what ever it is we call this period in time. For those first four decades the club run was just that, a club run. So blindingly simple no rules were ever needed. In fact there wasn’t if I recall correctly any thought process in the action of riding a club run.
Everyone turned up, all ages and all abilities and off we went, The weather wasn’t discussed, and there was no mention of distance or that of hills. Weather distance and hills were a forgone conclusion, a matter of fact.
Then there were the riders. Back then when a rider joined your club for the first time he rode with you as if you’d been on the bike together since leaving the womb. It seemed such a natural act there was never really a need to communicate, though we did of course. You rode a wheel because you knew you were safe behind the man in front. You rode wheel to wheel and two abreast everywhere. Verbal instructions to your club mates just didn’t exist…they just didn’t need to.
The kit. clean bikes always, a dirty bike was just poor form. Everything worked, though granted it was far simpler then. Cables crimped at regulation length, no rattles. black shoes and white socks. And certainly no computers, most churches had a clock and you’d be back in time for dinner. A hundred was a hundred and not 62 miles.
It was so simple, so well oiled, a thing of aesthetic beauty.

So to the present.
How in the name of all things sacred have we managed to make such a pigs ear out of something that was once perfect?
Why do so many modern club cyclists refuse to ride as a club? That’s actually a genuine question. How did the rider of the past just know what to do seemingly from birth? Trust was instant. He would know if you were tiring and ease off or tow you for a while, and you’d all work together without having to be asked. Pulling away from the group would be seen as showing off, and pulling away from the group after spending all day on a wheel to do so would mean a trip to Coventry.
Riders do it all the time now, there seems to be no shame in sitting in all day long just to show everyone what you can do on the next climb.
And assisting your club mates seems to be a long lost art. What seems to constitute an assist by many is actually an attack. With so much science at the hands of the modern rider he still seems incapable of understanding that by following a wheel he is saving up to thirty percent of the energy the rider in front is using. Many a time now a rider will just surge forward past me as I slow from towing him along, why can’t he see that surging past won’t help the man in front or anyone in the group, when what he should be doing is hooking up with his slowing brother…..offering a hand if you like.
We call the rules etiquette these days, but there isn’t a need for the rules of etiquette as the rider should be a well mannered sportsman.

Calling out. Rather controversially the warning call makes me cringe.
When we could ride wheel to wheel and two abreast without the rest of the group half wheeling into a six abreast beast there was no need for a call ever. Two maybe three hand signals existed, the point down to a hole, the hand on the back to warn of an obstacle and the arm up for just about anything from a horse in the road to needing a wee. Now it’s verbal diarrhea. Car ahead! really there should be no need to shout that there’s a car coming the other way. You shouldn’t be in their lane and YOU should be looking where you’re going. car behind, if you’re all neat and tidy…..here we go…..riding wheel to wheel, two abreast not half wheeling, not surging and breaking up the group the car behind can get past easier as they’ll see a neat and tidy and predictable group.
Holes. Shouting hole is useless. Two reasons, a) you need to know where exactly hence the point and b) if they are everywhere then you’ll know about it because your looking where you going aren’t you.

The club run hijacker. The club run is ‘the’ club run and not a vehicle for personal gain, that’s training or Strava’ing. It’s oil and water. That’s not to say there isn’t room for competitive fun like taking the village sign or the sprint to the top of the hill, but the way to do it is to do it in a way that entertains the group and must see you exhausted at the end. Surging out of the group isn’t the same, that’s underhand competition. And constant surging before returning to rest in the group is a cardinal sin.

I’ve had a read over what I’ve written and I stand by it. It’s too complicated, too many rules where rules aren’t needed, too many choices. A little lacking in manners and an unwillingness to take advice?
Myself? I’ll continue to strive to keep it simple in form and practice

POSTED BY CARL AT 15:43

Oldgit, when it comes to etiquette I’m surprised you’ve not mentioned the lack of mudguards on wet group rides! Some people don’t even seem to realise it’s a consideration to others rather than for your own benefit.

Have to say OG.. that sums up the modern club run perfectly. Its a shame they never get to experience how much fun proper group riding can be..

I watched this huge group completely shut Yorkshire a few months back. Totally out of order and showing no consideration to any other road users. One of them got his comeuppance though as he stacked it hard pissing about in Harrogate.

One of them got his comeuppance though as he stacked it hard pissing about in Harrogate.

Charming 😯

OP – quite seriously you just need to accept that UK roads have changed and there’s more people riding than there used to be, and find a way to live with it. I really don’t understand how you can get quite so upset as to come ranting on a forum about something which was at most, a minor inconvenience.

Overall this growth is very much for the better – we’re a very fat country and pollution is a major health risk so any increase in cycling and reduction in use of cars is good for everyone… the costs to the NHS (ie: us the taxpayer) as the population at large fail to look after themselves are very very significant – and we have more than enough debt as it is.

Cycling is going through unprecedented growth in popularity and looking like that growth will continue as more women and kids are persuaded out too. By definition that means there’s a lot of new and inexperienced riders.

Riding in a group is not necessarily easy and riding in UK traffic with poor driving skills so prevalent is threatening – you need to give people some time to learn their skills riding in this environment.

Mainland Europeans are famously much more friendly to cyclists than we are in the UK and if they can be, so can you.

Best thing you can do as a driver who’s upset by all this is to go out with a local club run a few times and find out for yourself how hard it is to ride in a group and to manage that group – and how it feels to have an impatient or poorly-skilled driver around you – you’ll learn a lot about how to drive around groups in future

Yes, I lead club runs, and find that its very hard to stop the break for the finish line riders. I make it very clear about what pace its going to be, double line etc etc, and as far as I can tell, only about 15% of modern club riders can hold a steady pace, not many can resist half wheeling, and most don’t know how to follow a wheel. Many don’t see a problem with stopping in the middle of a side junction and blocking it, even when there’s a car waiting to exit or enter, and either excessive pointing out of, well anything, or just ignoring potholes so that the rider behind falls into them. Its quite hard sometimes…
I’ve done runs at a previous club where people have said “I’ve never actually finished a club ride with the group before”, and then moan about how shit it was.

I’ve been riding bikes since the mid-70s when I was a kid but only started club riding in 2009 so I don’t know what club runs were like back in the day, but:
I have to say we’re not doing a very good job of communicating to new riders, briefing them and dealing with the times when they ride poorly.

My club has had numerous conversations about improving briefing for new riders and for the seniors to help teach the new riders but it’s not happening. I think in part there’s a reluctance to be seen to be too serious or too formal.

I tried myself at the weekend to let a new rider know about through and off but he just didn’t think there was anything he needed to know even though he’d just let the rest of us to all the work over a 3 mile fast stretch… I gave up rather than wanting to come across as too preachy…

Ultimately it’s the club’s fault if it’s not bringing new riders into line but I don’t know how you can enforce that.

Plus a lot of the ‘groups’ you see out aren’t club runs – just lots of smaller groups who happen to be in the same road at the same time and you can’t do much about that – much as you can’t hold one driver responsible for the fact they’re on the road at the same time as 20 others and creating a traffic jam…

everyday, i get held up by slow-moving cars because the drivers have decided to gather in such large numbers that the (already generous) dedicated infrastructure cannot cope.

was thinking something similar this morning, the roads were, quite frankly, mental. For 70% of the route cars were stuck at a crawl. Didn’t stop some drivers tear arsing impatiently passed me – no doubt muttering about bloody cyclists getting in the way (to join another queue just ahead) everytime the road opened up a bit.

Only myself to blame, should have got up earlier and ridden off road 🙁

My club has had numerous conversations about improving briefing for new riders and for the seniors to help teach the new riders but it’s not happening. I think in part there’s a reluctance to be seen to be too serious or too formal.

By contrast, my club expects new riders to come on Saturday “beginners” rides before moving into experienced group riding at the judgement of the Ride Leader (exceptions are made for club transfers but not triathletes!) . Fitness is no prerequisite for passing either. If you cannot follow a wheel safely, then you will not be allowed to progress. If you can, then you move swiftly to a group that is suited to your pace. Simple.

We also provide Ride Leader training and expect experienced club riders to pass on that experience. But a decent group ride needs riders of broadly similar ability/speed, organization/communication and some discipline. I’m happy to ride slightly slower in a well-disciplined group concentrating on skills and smoothness, rather than eyes-out suffer-fast in a shambles of a ride where machismo is all that matters.

As for OG: Nostagia isn’t what it used to be 😉

When I made those comments I thought I’d get loads of the ‘that’s why I’d never ride with a club’ comments’
Quite the opposite. People were itching for a little guidance.
The week after I wrote that we had really successful club rides, with our G3 (beginners) recording their longest and fastest ride using the compact 2 abreast system.

talking to the club about it tonight.

Biggest issue is the ones that can’t keep it in their pants. They won’t move up a group, they certainly won’t race. Instead they cause chaos in the middle group. Buying a black book next.
I’ve also got loads of members racing cross, just novice but great for skills and getting to know safely what a bike can do.

everyday, i get held up by slow-moving cars because the drivers have decided to gather in such large numbers that the (already generous) dedicated infrastructure cannot cope.

+1 again. Only this morning I could have shaved minutes off my journey if I hadn’t got held up by all these large motor vehicles taking up masses of road space with their single occupants. Very unreasonable of them.

cause major safety issues for everyone using that road.

Hmm. Trying to digest this. Presumably the people driving on the road are keeping to a speed that allows them to stop in the distance they can see, so they wouldn’t have a problem coming across a fallen tree or an escaped farm animal or perhaps a pedestrian walking on a lane with no pavements. Struggling to see how the cyclists are causing any safety issues if the people in the dangerous powered vehicles behave sensibly and drive according to the conditions.

Yes, I lead club runs, and find that its very hard to stop the break for the finish line riders. I make it very clear about what pace its going to be, double line etc etc, and as far as I can tell, only about 15% of modern club riders can hold a steady pace, not many can resist half wheeling, and most don’t know how to follow a wheel.

I’m with you AP. I’m not really a club rider but when I’ve ridden with clubs (and actually just with other leisure riders) I’ve been pretty shocked at how poor many people are at riding in and around traffic and/or in a group. There’s a lot of new riders around and neither of the clubs I’ve ridden with have done anything in the way of training – it’s just pick the group that’s your pace (which of course isn’t policed in any way so the usual macho shit of people picking a group that’s obviously too fast for them). However, a different problem to ‘annoying car drivers by being on the road’ which seems to really be the OP’s beef.