Religion – theological question

Given the set of issues and complaints against "God" in this thread those

Most of the complaints refer to religion rather than "god".

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one.

Well that's a rather large assumption. Whilst I would not presume to speak for all athiests I would respond by saying that I have considered religion and come the conclusion that on balance, no I don't beleive in god. I do not "know" for certain that there is no god (it is impossible to prove such a negative) but I have come to the conclusion on the basis of all the information that I have that I don't believe. Certainty about whether there is or is not a god is something normally reserved for theists.

many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty, encouragement, blah blah blah) are all characteristics of God then expect hell to be an unpleasent experience

Whist certain religions may have assimilated such characteristics into their belief structure, it has never been demonstrated that religion is a requirement for the existance of such characteristcs.

Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists) then surely it's not a big deal for you anyway as you are going to be far happier in a place where he isn't (if he does exist).

Again, speaking for myself I do not despise god as it is logically impossible to despise something that I do not believe exists. I am also unaware of any athiest who despises god. Religion yes, but then that actually exists.

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on. For them it is a life changing experience and they feel they cannot help telling others.

As far as I'm concerned people are free to believe whatever they want, however no-one is free to not have their beliefs challenged or even mocked.

Yes, a loose and tenuous example, but not totally dissimilar.

Except it is totally dissimilar. This is a mountain bike site. It should be anticipated that people post pics of their bikes. If someone randomly statred talking to me about bikes in the real world, frankly I'd consider them to be a bit of a nutter.

Morality is possible for an atheist

Oh good – I feel so much better… 😈

A few of the last posters-with-faith fail to recognise the implicit condescension in their stated points of view towards those who do not share their beliefs. But then this is enshrined in the bible. "No one will come to god excpet through me" etc etc.

A better question might be how many religious folk would be moral if they did not have a set of external rules to abide by, and why so many, espescially in religious leadership positions, fail so spectacularly to manage to behave decently to other humans.

Judged by rational endpoints other than music and architecture, I'd have to award religion a "FAIL"

Spongebob.. seriously. Wars and violence are caused by PEOPLE using religion as an EXCUSE.

If there was no religion, there'd still be violence.

Plus, the real cause of the Troubles in NI isn't religion, it's cultural background. THEM and US.

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one.

I would have said it was more of a matter of observing that religion was no better supported by fact than any fairy story

beliefs challenged or even mocked

Challenged, yes. Mocked no. Mocking is making your own amusement at someone else's expense, and is not nice. So it's out, in my book. Unless you have an understanding with the other party and you know they don't/won't mind.

Btw there's two arguments going on here

1) about the creation of the world
2) about morality

They're linked, but really not the same thing.

Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists)

as I was going up the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
he wasn't there again today
oh how I wish he'd go away…

Monkeeknutz – Member
Spongebob – There is a great tradition of interpreting scriptures (of all kinds). Why do you insist you can't pick bits of the bible? Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have been theological hotbeds for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. Why do we suddenly stop thinking about an experience when you say so?

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

You would be changing the wishes/commands’ passed on and thus be creating your own new religion.

Interpretation is a different thing to picking & leaving. It’s the interpretation that leads to fundamentalism not the picking & choosing.

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

which religion is that ?
Juadaism, Catholic, Protestant, Moslem ? They all use the bible, they all choose the bits they use

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

And if you don't?

You can still be Christian and not believe in biblical inerrancy…

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one. Anyone else see a tiny flaw in this?

I believe both sides are doing this. However only one side relies on faith due to a lack of evidence. If you wish to believe everything that cannot be proved to be false [which is everything you make up and that is pretend and everything that has no evidence] then you really are a fool and yes the alternative really is superior. Is the belief in fairies equally valid to a belief in evolution then despite the vast quantities of evidence for one and the lack for the other? Surely your belief should be a good match of reality based on facts, evidence , data, observation etc.

at the very least most of them are wrong and at least one may be right.

Not at the very best all but one are wrong so most believers are WRONG – this is factual TRUE. At MOST one MAY be correct but the odds are not in its favour as it has the same [lack of ] evidence and faith] as all the wrong ones. 😉 weak argument but amusing.

However, according to the christian view point, many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty

Yes all atheists lack these qualities we are all miserable and don’t give to charity. The argument we get morality from god is weak one. Either there is a reason why things are right/moral or god chose morality on a whim and you just follow these edicts. If it is the former anyone can see the truth reason of this , god, atheist, believer. Adams was the philosopher behind this IIRC

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on

They know we are not interested it is why we don’t believe. They see it as a calling to help save us how would they feel if atheists petitioned them outside church or followed them home to bring them to clarity? Everyone has heard of religion now leave us alone please

if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely

but a self starting god who hides from us all is likely – see point above about not all beliefs being equally valid

Certainly bright people believe in religion. IME most religious people also tend to live more moral lives than most atheists [ though they have less fun]. However their belief is shaky, unfounded and [ despite the you cannot prove a negative] just wrong. if I want to assert that there is an unseen force that controls us it is reasonable that others ask me to provide the evidence rather than just say you cannot prove I am wrong.

which religion is that ?

does it matter?

If you have the rules to being a follower of a god and choose not to follow some of those rules your really not going to be closer to heaven than if you followed non of the rules. – the only bit of free will is the choice to follow the rules or not. once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

Wars and violence are caused by PEOPLE using religion as an EXCUSE.

Quite right, no-one has ever suggested otherwise. It has however been said that there have always been good people in the world doing good things and bad people in the world doing bad things but for a good person to do bad things takes religion. Granted that's an extreme veiw point but it is not without merit.

Plus, the real cause of the Troubles in NI isn't religion, it's cultural background. THEM and US.

Well given that the Them and Us divide is based on the divide between Catholics and Protestants then I'm going with yes that conflict most certainly has it's roots in religion.

once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

They seem perfectly happy to argue amongst themselves about what bits mean…imagine a divine being so ambiguous that even the devout cannot understand exactly what they meant …through a dark glassly indeed or just gibberish a tough call

You can still be Christian and not believe in biblical inerrancy

yes i'd agree, yet you can't be a Christian and not believe in biblical infallibility.

or how would you know which bits are right?

the only bit of free will is the choice to follow the rules or not. once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

according to you, the religion or god(s) ?

Well given that the Them and Us divide is based on the divide between Catholics and Protestant

And why are there Catholics and Protestants? Because English Protestant landowners were installed in NI at the expense of Catholic Irish…

So it's Catholic v Protestant, but it's also English v Irish, landowner vs peasant, and incomer vs native.

Which of those highly emotive lines of conflict is worse?

On the subject of the bible, I suspect most thoughtful religious people think that the bible may have been the word of God at one point, but what we currently use is a very long way from the original text. For a start, half of it's been cut.

so you can bleieve it is the word of god[ who is always correct] yet it has errors in it but it is completely true and accurate in matters of faith /practice…. nope cant see anything wrong with that view.

What?

EDIT:

What I am saying is that Christians can debate on what the real meaning is contained within the text of the bible. Because that real meaning may have been obscured.

Dunno what the problem is there.

me:which religion?

does it matter?

well having said:
"If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible."
one might suppose you meant a particular one and not just "any"

yes i'd agree, yet you can't be a Christian and not believe in biblical infallibility.

I think Catholics are suppose to believe in papal infallibility, but there are many other brands of Christianity, and for example Catholics ignore the laws of Kosher set down…

Yeah, but the question is:

What tyres for catholicism?
😀

And why are there Catholics and Protestants? Because English Protestant landowners were installed in NI at the expense of Catholic Irish…

So you agree that it is to do with religion then.

So it's Catholic v Protestant, but it's also English v Irish, landowner vs peasant, and incomer vs native.

Which of those highly emotive lines of conflict is worse?

Well given that it all started around religion I'm going with that being the worst as it seems to have been the root cause.

On the subject of the bible, I suspect most thoughtful religious people think that the bible may have been the word of God at one point, but what we currently use is a very long way from the original text. For a start, half of it's been cut.

Right, I'm confused now. If the bible now isn't the word of god then why do most christians put so much faith in it?

Religion is about the imposition of a set of rules on the unruly. Easiest to do it as a club whereby if you're in good stuff happens and if you're out you are socially, politically and economically excluded. Fantastic in its simplicity and very frightening how so many fall for it and seem to need it even now.

Personally my beliefs are mine and mine alone. One of them is that anyone who endeavours to inform me of or persuade me that their beliefs have more validity than mine is automatically by that token someone to be avoided.

Ok so.

To me, the problem I have is with the reification of the concept of 'God'. We see that various religions treat the portrayal of God in different ways; Christian art depicts God as a male Human figure, Hinduism has loads of weird looking creatures, and Islam forbids any depiction of Allah.

But creating an image of God is understandable; how do you explain the Unseen to people, in a manner they might understand? To me, 'God' is not something that can be quantified, reified or reduced to any form which is instantly understandable. I think most religions work on this basis too, it's just that their depictions and concepts are suggestions, maybe, of what such a being could be. Perhaps it's just impossible for collective Humanity to have a God/s that are beyond the limit of our imagination and reasoning. Maybe we need something tangible, something 'real'.

Funny, that Atheists need 'God' in order to be able to argue with others, and sell their books….

Shocking video – The lunacy of Sharia Law

Don't worry, it's not graphic.

Do some digging about Islam, then tell me we should be tolerant towards it.

It's the stuff of the Dark Ages and THERE IS NO PLACE FOR IT IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY!

Do some digging about Islam, then tell me we should be tolerant towards it.

I grew up in a Muslim family, and live in an area with lots of Muslim people. The vast majority are nice. My own personal experience of Islam is quite positive overall, as is my experience of Christianity and other religions.

Mind you, I don't read paranoid hysterical right-wing bullshit newspapers, or listen to phobic crankpots, so what do I know, eh?

Spongebob; you speak of tolerance, yet you seem completely intolerant towards Islam.

Do you mind if we laugh at you?

Funny, that Atheists need 'God' in order to be able to argue with others

not god, but the concept of god. And certainly one could discuss atheism without mentioning gods, any more than one would need to mention custard or knitting…

And certainly one could discuss atheism without mentioning gods

How?

atheism |?????iz?m|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

Surely, atheism requires that others believe in a concept of God, in order to exist as a philosophy?

Christian art depicts God as a male Human figure

This is because "God created man in his own image". So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

Hopefully for his sake not too much like me. 😀

So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

FYI Genesis has god making us in his own image 🙂

Surely, atheism requires that others believe in a concept of God, in order to exist as a philosophy?

the 'a' means 'without' – so without a theory of god
you can just make your own mind up about how to behave without worrying about jujus. I hasten to add that I have abandoned strict atheism as conventionally interpreted as too dogmatic, but in practice the difference is negligible

atheism is a belief like any religion.

if anything to be a committed atheist is nuts. why believe something that is as yet unprovable does not exist. much better to keep your options open. (got to admire the commitment though). which brings us nicely back to pascal's wager.

So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

FYI Genesis has god making us in his own image

which is what i quoted.
therefore we must look like him, & him like us.

if anything to be a committed atheist is nuts

well, I guess that's why I'm willing to accept any number of gods from zero to infinity and ignore them all equally

FYI Genesis has god making us in his own image

Which one of us in particular looks like Mr Beardy ?

which is which is what i quoted.

sorry, I misread you 🙂

SimonFBarnes should be committed if you ask me….

atheism is a belief like any religion.

No it isn't, it's the ABSENCE of a belief.

which brings us nicely back to pascal's wager.

If your best reason for believing in god is pascal's wager then your faith must be very weak indeed.

we've established that believing in gods doesn't require one to be religious. Actually I'm inclined to think that we are the gods.