Religion – theological question

I dunno mate, I just want a Bugatti veyron.

I simply can't accept that it's all just an accident.

but is a limitation on your imagination a reason for anything?

but saying you reject that concept, doesn't make you tougher or stronger or more imaginative or more able, IMHO. Whether you believe or DON'T believe, doesn't make you a better person.

I'm gonna check my chilli, just in case…

Whether you believe or DON'T believe, doesn't make you a better person.

I say it doesn't matter what you believe, only what you do…

but is a limitation on your imagination a reason for anything?

How TF do I know? But how will I possibly find out, or even begin to understand, if I don't investigate?

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out. I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is. Or not. Whatever the case may be. But none of us know for sure, so what's the harm in believing?

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes. I see you're better. Did you have some broth like I suggested?

but is reason a reason for anything?

"I say it doesn't matter what you believe, only what you do…"
I'll agree with that. That's really easy 🙂

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out.

and has anyone said that in this thread ?

so what's the harm in believing?

That depends on your actions based on that belief

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes. I see you're better. Did you have some broth like I suggested?

I think I ignored every single helpful suggestion made to me :o)

I dunno mate, I just want a Bugatti veyron.

And where would you put a bike, in that?

Just looks like a fat budgie. Like a car that's eaten too many pies.

And the seagulls in yer car park would ruin the paintwork…

I think I ignored every single helpful suggestion made to me :o)

Yes because you're probbly just happier being poorly and miserable.

I'm too tired for this. I'm off to watch my recording of CSI.

I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is

so you're saying the effort depends on the conclusion ? If we really try the answer is different ?

Yes because you're probbly just happier being poorly and miserable.

it comes down to belief again. I have more faith in my body's ability to mend itself than lemon/honey/broth/paracetamol/etc

Maybe.

titusrider – Member

My question is fundamentaly what makes the faithful believe their answers have more merit than the answers of other cultures?

Naivety? A harsher word would be ignorance? Expansionism? Power?

How about this?

Cryptic alert!
Cryptic alert!

God (extreme) <— perhaps the answer is in the middle(?) —> Science (extreme)

If you look at both they are absolute in their answers so perhaps you want to consider these questions:

1) Question for God is where does s/he come from? Spontaneous appearance? How? Based on what?

2) Question for science is how far does one investigate in order to find the answer? Is it useful? i.e. the origin of life? The origin of universe? Can universe spontaneously appear like God?

🙂

I saw a documentary on the construction and engineering feat that took to make that car. Fascinating!

1) Question for God is where does s/he come from? Spontaneous appearance? How? Based on what?

isn't a god an it ? The question presupposes that a god has the same kind of existence as us. Might it not have always been?

so, before I go to bed, did we answer the question? what was the question?….

Tuesday 9 AM next week, we will gather for another theology/religion/bugatti debate. I hope to see you there in class. Especially you Barnes, you slacker latecomer.

I saw a documentary on the construction and engineering feat that took to make that car. Fascinating!

Still looks like a fat budgie.

simonfbarnes – Member

isn't a god an it ? The question presupposes that a god has the same kind of existence as us. Might it not have always been?

So you are saying s/he/it was once like us?

If that is the case then there are four possibilities:

1) God did not appear spontaneously.
2) Something created God or s/he/it derives from somewhere.
3) S/he/it was once like us.
4) A combination of the above.
🙂

So you are saying s/he/it was once like us?

no, I didn't mean that at all. I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

simonfbarnes – Member

no, I didn't mean that at all. I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

If that is the case then are we at fault for creating or associating "God" with our existence especially those that hold such belief?

🙂

I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

Man creates God in his own image….

but isn't religion an attempt to understand existence?

An "attempt"! Fail!!!

All my life I was under the distinct impression that most people didn't really believe religion/god, because the whole thing is patently flawed. Surely anyone with a brain can see that! I thought people just went along with it out of politeness, the need to conform with tradition and generally not wanting to rock the boat.

Later on in my life it came as a shock to me, realising that people do actually believe all of this is true!

My father was a doctor and his father was a rector. My dad was a clever guy, he finished secondary school by 14 and was qualified as a doctor by 21. He lived in a pretty religious environment growing up. He used to send me and my sisters to Sunday school, so the indoctrination effort continued. It was wasted on me though.

My father once told me he believed in the Bible, except the virgin birth. He told me this belief was because of his medical knowledge. Well how many women do you know who had a baby without having sex, or artificial insemination? Science and medicine has proved that a single human being alone cannot reproduce – FACT! So how then did Mary manage to "press one out" without Joseph giving her his "divine seed"? Utter nonsense!

Now, you either believe the entire contents of the Bible, or you don't. You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest. So I conclude that my father misunderstood the whole point of the exercise – faith. Or was he just going along with the whole charade?

Religion has been, is and will always be a cause of conflict, death and destruction!

Only today, some mad Christian evangelists based in Florida are threatening to burn a pile of copies of the Quran/Koran on 9/11. The Iranian Muslim Clerics are saying this would bring about an uncontrolled response from Muslims around the world.

In the US, there is a great controversy about the building of a mosque overlooking ground zero and many Americans are questioning whether their president is infact a muslim. His speech in Cairo was certainly an eye opener.

I'm sure this bunch of evangelicals nuts in Florida have been motivated to make this statement because of the planned Mosque at Ground Zero. The building of a Mosque in this place is seen as an affront to Christian America by the Muslims who are gloating over their victory on 9/11. An insult to all who perished in the twin tower disaster, the survivors and the relatives.

Tensions are running high! People are exasperated as to why planning permission was granted and why the Muslim leaders would want to provoke people by siting their mosque so insensitively.

The leaders of the western world are being browbeaten into accepting the gradual Islamification of their countries and the quest for political correctness, for tolerance is allowing in an wholly intolerant religion. Check out Sharia Law and some of the stuff that goes on in one of the supposed civilized Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia. E.G, public stoning to death of rape victims, the persecution of homosexuals and other the medieval practices od Sharia Law. Jews aren't too popular with Muslims either and the Koran encourages violence towards the people it doesn't like! Tolerance???? My arse!!! To think civilised countries are embracing and ecnouraging the spread of this vile poison!

Other conflicts include Northern Ireland, The Baltic war, a whole raft of wars in the Middle East. How about the crusades? THe list is endless, yet still we passionately subscribe to divisive claptrap, citing all that is good about a particupar faith. Nonsense!

I think the way forward for a peaceful society, if you want to be religious, is keep religion entirely to youself! No identifying features either. It should be an entirely private thing.

I personally like free thinking and to question the world around me. I make sense of "existence" by examining real things, real facts and how man has learned from experimentation. The methodology of science is rational and enables the human race to further it's knowledge of the world. Referring to a selection of dusty old story books does NOTHING for us. Morality CAN exist without religion!

Perhaps my life is lacking something because I have no sense of spirituality. I'm more about reality than ideals and unproven dark age dogma.

Religion, Yawn!

So many words.

Such little understanding.

Night all.

X

Spongebob – Member

Religion has been, is and will always be a cause of conflict, death and destruction!

This has been going on for centuries yet people continues with such practice so are people ignorance? Naive? Believe in expansionism? Want more power? Bet the answer is somewhere there.

The methodology of science is rational and enables the human race to further it's knowledge of the world. Referring to a selection of dusty old story books does NOTHING for us. Morality CAN exist without religion!

Perhaps my life is lacking something because I have no sense of spirituality. I'm more about reality than ideals and unproven dark age dogma.

Rational but will they turn extreme since they prefer the absolute even when knowledge itself is infinite, so the question is when do they stop and focus on the present good.

So what guides the morality in science?

🙂

p/s:

Only today, some mad Christian evangelists based in Florida are threatening to burn a pile of copies of the Quran/Koran on 9/11. The Iranian Muslim Clerics are saying this would bring about an uncontrolled response from Muslims around the world.

The clash of the titans begins.

Religion is a human invention. The symptoms of which are similar to mental illness.

If that is the case then are we at fault for creating or associating "God" with our existence especially those that hold such belief?

it's a hypothesis – any fault would be attached to behaviour predicated on the belief

Damn how did I miss this Ding Dong 🙄

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out. I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is. Or not.

I agree we should all have investigated this possibility, embraced spirituality, explored various religions etc. However to then conclude their is a god is a seriously flawed answer.

Whatever the case may be. But none of us know for sure, so what's the harm in believing?

Well we do really except you cannot prove a negative.
As for the harm shall we start at the Crusades and work forwards?

The leaders of the western world are being browbeaten into accepting the gradual Islamification of their countries and the quest for political correctness, for tolerance is allowing in an wholly intolerant religion.

Was that in the Daily Mail List of things that threaten our very existence? Just out of interest how many wars have we started with Islamic countries recently? How many countries do we occupy? Now how many Muslim countries have declared war on the West? Don’t let the facts affect your fearful hysteria now Bob. Threatens our very existence FFS IDIOTIC thing to say

Science and medicine has proved that a single human being alone cannot reproduce – FACT! So how then did Mary manage to "press one out" without Joseph giving her his "divine seed"? Utter nonsense!

but the hypothesis is that the entire universe was created by an entity not constrained by the internal rules governing that universe. In that context a little genetic manipulation is trivial

You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest.

who says so ? Do you get to decided this for us ? I quite like some of the things Jesus is supposed to have said, regardless of whether he was real or fiction.

There are slightly larger holes in the theology that that.
What got me as a child was if god me me who made god? Something comes from nothing and at least we know we exist and have a farily good understanding of how we came into existence.

I'm very proud of you all, this was actually a faily mature coheasive discussion 🙂

The funniest thing is watching gatherings of 'religious leaders' all getting along so well

Either they all secretly hate each other, or they understand the subject better than you and can reconcile their respective positions.. hmm…

And when I sometimes sit and ponder the absurdity of Human existence, together with the preposterousness of the supposed vastness of the Universe, I simply can't accept that it's all just an accident.

Why not? Seems beautiful to me. The idea that I'm just something's experiment or pet feels awful to me. I don't want to go around with the weight of someone else's expectation and obligation on my shoulders. I want to choose my own path in this random universe. Fortunately I choose one that tries good to my fellow humans…

Even a cah has a point to it's life. Even an amoeba.

Why? Why should it? Free yourself!

There seems to be something a little Freudian about your point of view Fred 🙂

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes.

Amen. Oh bugger!

My question is fundamentaly what makes the faithful believe their answers have more merit than the answers of other cultures?

Tribalist tendencies in the human psyche. Same reason TJ insists that his ideas on blood sugar and insulin are the absolute only truth despite us pointing out further knowledge in certain situations.

I've noticed that when you're told something, especially from someone you respect or when you're young, you tend to internalise it and it becomes the truth. Even if the original fact was incorrect or incomplete. I noticed myself doing this when I was a kid. It's actually quite hard to un-learn things.

Now, you either believe the entire contents of the Bible, or you don't. You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest

Yes, you can. Why not? It's pretty easy to see that even if there is a God, mankind could still have written a pile of bolx and passed it off as the word of God, could it not?

I make sense of "existence" by examining real things, real facts and how man has learned from experimentation

Aww, bless 🙂

Wow.. mega catch-up posting 🙂

So many words and so many thoughts along with so many misunderstandings – no wonder we never really get much fruit out of these discussions.

Given the set of issues and complaints against "God" in this thread those a neutral mind may find this[/url] book interesting. It comes from a Christian perspective and having read it over the summer I thought it was an oipen and thoughtful discussion. Did it answer every question? No. Does it bat away the key criticisms? No, not really, but it does at least make you think.

Like a number of people on this thread I had a background of being brought up in a church environment. Like many people here I still have a number of questions that I find are hard to resolve. However, just because I don't understand everything doesn't mean I automatically label those who have a strong faith as deluded or misguided or basing their lives on fairy tales. Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one. Anyone else see a tiny flaw in this? Perhaps the same one they are accusing the religious dimwits of possessing?

And no, not all religions are the same. Not by a long way so yes – at the very least most of them are wrong and at least one may be right. But which one?

And for the record, the current realistic view of hell is that it is simply a place where there is a complete absence of God and his characteristics. Probably not sulpherous burning and roasting for eternity. However, according to the christian view point, many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty, encouragement, blah blah blah) are all characteristics of God then expect hell to be an unpleasent experience. But you haven't been sent there – you have merely chosen to go there as you do not want any part of the "fairy story". So why get so upset about it? Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists) then surely it's not a big deal for you anyway as you are going to be far happier in a place where he isn't (if he does exist).

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on. For them it is a life changing experience and they feel they cannot help telling others. Not entirely unlike everyone who posts pictures of their new bike / build here really is it? I don't see many replies on those posts telling people to leave them alone and keep their bike building / purchasing efforts to themselves. Yes, a loose and tenuous example, but not totally dissimilar.

Oh well, more fuel for the fire…. 😉

I hate the way internet conversations keep going while I'm not around!

erm…I think the indignation of a materialistic community and their assertion that spirituality (used in preference to doctrinal religion) is evidence of weak mindedness is unhelpful at best, if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely and my perception of reality has room for the divine then this can be intellectually rigorous – some clever people believe in god lots of idiots don't and so on.

A consciousness of a spirituality within humanity is not without its experiential evidence – now this may be delusional, I'm sure a lot of people think it is – but the counter point is the assertion that any kind of reality can be genuinely perceived by a human 'machine'. Your existence at all is difficult to prove and may well be delusional, this conversation may not be happening outside of my own consciousness. Our minds trick us, we know this to be true as far as anything is true. Our senses are unreliable and so we pick an experience that we choose to validate over another, I believe a spiritual experience based on my perception of the universe around me in the same way I choose scientific understanding of other aspects of my world view. The Modernistic 'my way or the highway' of some atheistic and religious dogma is simply not indicative of the human experience or the validity of human perception.

The old morality chestnut is perhaps an example – Morality is possible for an atheist but is purely subjective and concepts of right and wrong are only dependent on the viewer's opinion. e.g. If I leave a man to drown in a river it is deemed morally repugnant by society even if I'm following my evolutionary instinct to preserve my genetic code over another's. In fact leaving the man to die is, surely in a materialistic universe, praiseworthy.

Atheism can have all the morals it wants so long as it owns up to the understanding that it doesn't matter – being nice is the same as not being nice, existentialism, liberalism and nihilism have already been through all this why do we keep looking for absolute authorities like a gang of Modernists? Atheists have their comfort blankets too…

Molgrips – being 'moral' because it makes you feel good is a form of gyroscopic liberalism so good on you for atheistic rigor! Now you just need to get rid of the hang ups about not harming another and all that nonsense and we can crack on!

Spongebob – There is a great tradition of interpreting scriptures (of all kinds). Why do you insist you can't pick bits of the bible? Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have been theological hotbeds for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. Why do we suddenly stop thinking about an experience when you say so?

All religions interpret their holy books, that's why there are sects, cults and schisms. You sound more fundamental than most religious people I know! 😀

Top post, Monkeeknutz – one of my favourite on the subject!

if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely

Hmm, careful there on the use of terms like 'rational' or 'common sense' in the context of extreme science. The kind of things being talked about are so far from the every day experiences that define those terms that they are completely useless. Saying that you don't believe in a self-starting universe because, "well, it's just silly, isn't it?" is just.. well.. silly 🙂 Quantum mechanics goes against all common sense too, but that's exactly the point. It's NOT common sense for a reason!

Now you just need to get rid of the hang ups about not harming another and all that nonsense and we can crack on!

Heh.. 🙂 well I choose not to harm others. Why? Well let's see.. I believe that we have a biological imperative to help others in our tribe ie it's hard-wired into our brains and (mostly) we get a psychological reward. Then, being intellectually rigorous we can see that there's no difference between those people in our tribe or family and those in the rest of the world. So therefore, we need to be good to others.

The intellectual rigour step is sadly lacking though in many people. Which is why we have wars, road rage and acrimonious STW arguments.

Now let's sweep the violence and death caused by religion under the carpet.[/url]

I bet the 15000 rapes in the Democratic Republic of Congo has got something to do with religion, but you can bet, just like other reports of religious conflicts (e.g. Northern Ireland), the root cause will be swept under the carpet.

How could we possibly undermine the credibility of religion!