Question for winter hill walkers

Crampons with spikes facing each other (not in bag) are now strapped through plastic loops on the outside
insulated jacket in dry bag in main compartment for stops.
Bottom zip up section has Paclite trousers, spare socks, gaiters (which I’ll more than likely be wearing anyway), spare hat, gloves, snood, old-skool orange survival bag. Paclite coat inside for rain duties.
Flask in one external pocket, water in other Food/energy drink in the 6 litre top flap section. Knife/headtotch etc in pocket under top section.

Looking at what you have it doesn’t seem excessive. So maybe it’s a crap shaped bag / not 30l as suggested above.

I don’t take a flask, spare hat, snood or knife. No need that I can see for spare socks on a day walk. Do you fill that 6l section with food and drink? Seems like a lot when you have a flask and water bottle and can almost always get water on the hill.

I agree with Spin, what extra do people carry in the rucksack in winter?
30L + 6L should be more than enough for walking.
Paclite trousers – wear them
flask – unnecessary luxury
old orange survival bag – buy a modern vacuum packed emergency bag (not blanket) http://evaq8.co.uk/THERMAL-SURVIVAL-BAG.html
maybe add a pr of ski goggles and balaclava

Footflaps – what a great picture to try and dream about. Where is it? How technical is the final section?

How technical is the final section?

It’s a grade II winter climb I think.

I get everything I need for winter climbing in a 45l bag with space to spare and nothing bar axes on the outside.

I’m the same but with a 50l (simply because it’s a good size for summer multi day stuff too and I can carry both ropes in it if i’m climbing with anne – she needs to carry less weight).

Remember though, if you’re used to being out and about in winter then you’re far less likely to carry stuff you don’t need, are able to pack more efficiently and tend to have better/more lightweight kit. I recall much of the space in my pack being taken up by layers when I first started out, since I hadn’t yet worked out a good system and would end up carrying more than I needed to in my pack. Now everything is worn because I know I won’t get into difficulty wearing kit i’m used to, even at belays. Then a lightweight down jacket goes in just in case I end up spending an evening in the refuge!

My pack in winter has gradually got smaller and smaller over the years, but that’s primarily due to better kit and experience – neither of which the OP might have enough of yet.

(incidentally, my crampons go in the pack and my screws in a side pocket – i’ve trashed my mates leather car seats with the crampons in the past and poked more than one hole through a jacket with screws) you live and learn eh? 🙂

How technical is the final section?
It’s a grade II winter climb I think.

angles and photos deceive, it’s a walk to the flat top summit (if it’s Beinn Dearg Torridon, looks like it).

I wont be buying a new rucksack – if I cant get the setup to work I’ll take the coat back.

Eh, why would you expect that any piece of equipment will cover any situation? Just buy a bigger rucksack.

Honeybadger: slot axe down between your rucsack and your back – which means you can reach over your shoulder and pull it out if needed

This has been my preferred method of carrying an ice axe for 40+ yrs. Seen too many over the years struggling to remove rucsac & axe on steep ground.

Well this thread had me perplexed as I as think that I take too much (not just winter hill walking, whatever it is I’m doing) but I use an old Freeflow 25+5. I do tend to move fast and take multiples of light layers, no big puffy jackets. I also have a 45l sack but haven’t used that for much other than shopping for years. I never do anything that requires me to carry a rope like some you folk do though.

your biggest mistake was buying a berghaus freeflow rucksack

+1 the OH has one, the airflow back makes it next to useless IMO.

Berghaus Freeflow really are awful sacks, there is so much wrong with them it isn’t funny. The back system is so far off your back it messes with your center of gravity, when fully loaded.

Like an idiot I bought another Berghuas sack, although this time from the Fast & light series and while it is better thought out than the Freeflow it still has some incredibly annoying features and is as waterproof as a paper bag. Maybe Berghaus do make a decent rucksack but I’m not willing to try another.

So OP my advice is, admit defeat and go invest in a better designed rucksack. Annoying to lose £60, but not as annoying as not being able to get stuff in and out, while standing in a storm on a Scottish hill somewhere.

I now wonder if I don’t take enough gear. 35 litre rucksack with climbing gear. Helmet gets fastened to the outside around an axe. Crampons placed together and strapped with the points facing out to the side using the side compression straps.

I don’t like the look of rucksacks with loads of buckles and straps flapping about. In winter they can be a hinderance.

I have a 45 litre rucksack that only gets used in the alps when carring climbing gear plus bivvy bag, sleeping bag, change of base layer, stove, cooking utensils and cooking food. Sometimes a change of footwear. Hate spending time at a bivvy in winter boots.

Can’t remember the berghaus back panels but one of many rucksacks at home is an Osprey with a similar back panel. You can actually stuff things between the mesh panel and back of rucksack to keep you warmer if need be and make stuff easy to access. Something like a waterproof squished in there, I often stick an OS map there as its easy to store and retrieve

I’m sure you’ve got the idea by now, but +1 on the Freeflow sacks are shite!

I use a 37l sack for just about everything; summer cragging, 2-3 day backpacking, winter walking, summer alpine & winter climbing- everything inside the sack (1/2 a rack, helmet, crampons etc.) with a rope slung under the lid. Don’t get another jacket, get a proper rucksack!

Cheers,
Jamie

Although I’m not really a walker, I’m finding this interesting.

One question on gear comes to mind.

Has anyone done an analysis on the gear that was carried by people who have died of exposure or had to be rescued to see what vital stuff is needed in extremis – you know, the sort of situation you never intend getting into, and only happens to others?

In most cases the thing they needed was navigation skills. Most common cause of MRT call outs, IIRC, is people getting lost….

Has anyone done an analysis on the gear that was carried by people who have died of exposure or had to be rescued to see what vital stuff is needed in extremis – you know, the sort of situation you never intend getting into, and only happens to others?

It’s not that simple. Packing a waterproof bivvy and a 4 season sleeping bag would increase your chances of survival until rescue dramatically, but not many people who die in the mountains do so due to exposure, it’s normally avalanche or fall related injuries. Those who do die of exposure often just get lost due to poor navigation (as footflaps pointed out). If they’ve not got the foresight to learn proper map skills then i doubt they’ll fork out hundreds of pounds on a sleeping bag “just in case” 🙂

I’ve always got a Terra Nova bothy with me which I suspect would keep me alive a bit longer if need be, along with good clothing. I do quite like having an overnight pack with me, since if things do go to shit at least I have a proper shelter, bag and food!

angles and photos deceive, it’s a walk to the flat top summit (if it’s Beinn Dearg Torridon, looks like it).

Nope. It’s the traverse of A’Chioch on Beinn Bhan.

UKC Page

OP YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE.

Here is the answer. If you don’t spend too much time on the internet, and spend lots of time winter hill walking, your method of packing and knowledge of what to take will evolve quickly. It becomes automatic.

Stop thinking too much, reserve energy for doing outdoor pursuits.

Speaking trousers… Scholler fabric is ace. I have Mammut Base Jump trousers. Shed snow, warm, lightweight. I rarely have to wear additional insulation (long johns) or overtrousers.

For survival stuff, I now have one of these – and having used another while ‘playing’ with MRT, I was mega impressed. Wore all my clothes apart from boots inside and in snowy/sleet conditions was toasty warm.
I sat on rucksack, and undoubtedly ground cold would be the issue on a proper sit it out.
This, plus a tad of shelter and lots of clothes would be almost as good as sleeping bag in bivvi bag IMO.

That has replaced a much bigger sleeping bag in my pack…

matt – how easy was it to get that back into the little bag?

It wasn’t mine – it was MRT team that had a few to try out.
Near impossible I would guess!

I’ve got a couple and they actually go back in pretty easily so can be used for none emergencies without ruining the “packability”.

Nope. It’s the traverse of A’Chioch on Beinn Bhan.

Hey-ho, looked like Torridon rock strata and Moran lives in that area, was the only local flat top summit I could think of in Torridon and looked plausible. Chapeau etc

It’s the same rock so understandable that it looks similar.

Martin did a creag Meagaidh style crab crawl traverse of those corries. Huge route and almost certainly un repeated.

I also carry one of those emergency bivvy bags. Never actually tried it so nice to read Matt’s review.

Where can I get one of those bags? Link?

For survival stuff, I now have one of these – and having used another while ‘playing’ with MRT,

I carry one of those in my first aid kit whenever I’m out. Came across a guy who’d crashed and broke his hip on ice in Whinlatter Forest a few years back, so he got to try it out whilst I rode off to the trail head to call for an ambulance.

Wiggle stock them

pretty much my entire emergency/medical kit is one of those survival bags^ (mine is vacuum packed), plus a small roll of carpet tape, one dressing (stuffed in the hole on the carpet tape), a few compeeds, the strongest pain killers I could steal, a whistle and the scissors on my penknife.

I think this thread has shown there’s no one-size-fits-all solution. Read the advice, pack as best you can. As long as you just go steady and use common sense you ought to be fine!

(so don’t go throwing yourself up tower ridge just yet :P)

Fullauto – you’re right.
It’s always worth getting views/opinions even they they differ greatly.

With a bit more experimenting I’ve got THE coat, Paclite coat & trousers, a fleece, gloves etc, a small Lucozade Sport, 1.5 litres of water and food inside or in external pockets with crampons (now in their bag) strapped to bottom – the cover does its job too. Ditched for flask. I’m happy that I’ll stay warm, dry, hydrated and fed.
I have an old orange survival bag – should I change it for one of those MRT bivvy bags?
Do I REALLY need googles (overkill?) or will shades do?

Thanks for the pointers folks!

An orange survival bag will be fine. I generally have one in winter on the basis that it’s easy to spot and less likely to get shredded by crampons etc than the space blankets.

Goggles could be worth slinging in (depending on route and how much protection from wind your shades give you). Trying to navigate in snow + 50 mph winds on the cairngorm plateau with shades on can become a chore, although to be fair I rarely wear mine 🙂

The biggest way to save room/weight, and you’ll only get here with trial and error, is your layering system. I used to carry all manner of layers, always too hot or too cold or with a huge pack full of stuff.

These days I know exactly what to stick on for the hill/ridge/route (e.g. moving quickly or slowly, will it likely be wet etc) so there’s less in my bag to put on if need be, since i’ll already be wearing it.

Goggles are only necessary if the forecast suggests it’s going to be freezing winds on top. walking into driving freezing wind, spindrift, rain, sleet, snow can make it near impossible to look ahead or where you’re going. I consider them critical in certain conditions, that I pretty much always pack them if it’s close to or below freezing. not sure about shades, might quickly fog up, but better than nothing perhaps.

One other thing, the cold metal of an ice axe can make your fingers freezing thru gloves very quickly. make sure your gloves are good ones, not just those fleecy things.

make sure your gloves are good ones, not just those fleecy things.

They don’t have to be expensive either…

I wear these for winter climbing (in face, for most things in winter where I still need to be able to use my hands). Always got a few pairs in my bag, which is fine when they’re £5 a pair!

Rarely had cold* hands with them on, great dexterity (fine with ice tools + screws), plus very very tough.

That said, I absolutely love wearing Dachsteins too when I don’t need to be holding something 🙂

*by that I mean I’ve rarely been unable to hold my axes due to pain 🙂

Do I REALLY need googles

Personally I always carry them in winter as if the wind picks up and you have to walk into driving wind, hail, rain, spin drift etc they’ll make a massive difference and weigh bugger all.

I always keep a pair of Bolle safety glasses in the rucksac. Handy if goggles are left at home!

That said, I absolutely love wearing Dachsteins too when I don’t need to be holding something

Quite often the best part of the day- putting on a pair for the walk out!

Cheers,
Jamie

Rascal, where are you going, Scotland, Lakes, N Wales, Aiguille du Ilkley Moor?