Question for winter hill walkers

I have created a problem for myself that I need resolving…do I have too much stuff or is my rucksack too small?
I’ve got a 30 plus 6 ltr Berghaus Freeflow that’s always been a bit tight on space – seems smaller than it is.
I’ve always been ok but never struggle to fill it…the problem’s got worse since I decided I want to try winter walking – ie I now have an ice axe (which admitedly will go outside somehow), crampons and today I bought a Lowe Alpine Glacier Point insulated coat…
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/lowe-alpine-glacier-point-mens-insulated-jacket-p282551

Now in theory for me too have said insulated coat it’s gonna be cold enough and potentially snowy, which means for at least some of the walktime whilst higher up I will be wearing the crampons and not having to carry them. The coat was more for stops when not moving so will be carried most of the time – I think it will be too hot to walk in.
I do own an insulated gilet which is good for body core when stopping but not arms – carrying that is a fraction of the bulk – never been a massive issue getting cold with this on I must admit.
I like the idea of bunging a nice snug coat on when it’s freezing but it’s playing havoc with everything else.
There are probably better suited more compact coats out there but cost shitloads more.

In a nutshell: do I need this coat or should I MTFU with my gilet?
What’s the best way to carry crampons anyway? I could lash them to the outside (they are in a specific bag) to create space inside.
I am very new to carrying all this stuff ie never have – will be embarking on winter skills course very soon.

Those in the know, please advise 😕

What are you carrying normally? I can manage most summer walks with a 10l camelbak. Would never need to fill a 30L rucksack except in winter.

With winter hillwalking particularly, err on the side of having too much. The big coat that’s handy for lunch stops might also be the thing that keeps you alive overnight. Aother good tip is to take spare socks. They weigh nothing and are great if you get stuck out. I’d also recommend at least three pairs of gloves.

With crampons, inside or out is personal preference. Also depends how often you’ll put them on and off. Do definitely put them in a proper, tough bag though. And think about wearing winter trousers with crampon patches inside the legs.

With winter hillwalking (unless you really aren’t venturing far) you should look at your kit and think “if I had to spend the night on a freezing cold hillside in snow and possibly a blizzard, would this kit keep me alive?” I’d also never venture out in the hills in winter without one of the portable bothies you can buy.

Equally though, don’t let all that stuff above put you off. The hills can be amazing places in winter. Just err on the side of caution when packing.

your biggest mistake was buying a berghaus freeflow rucksack for a winter sack. they are hard to pack effectively to maximixe space. get a bog standard sack – no frame, Ideally with ice axe loops and side entrance zip and a crampon pocket or a few straps to attach them to.

I normally walk with a 45 litre in winter and as highclimber says avoid the ones with the frame in to maximise useful packing space.

I reckon 30L is a too tight for a winter sack. Throw in a wee bit of extra food (you’ll burn more calories), a hot drink, some spare insulation and a bivvy/bothy bag and that’s just about your lot. I also like to take a spare pair of gloves, a map & compass (GPS is my standard navigation tool) and torch. Hell, I might even have a snow shovel with me!

I personally use a 35 – 45 litre rucksack ( you don’t have to fill it).

I wouldn’t venture in to the big mountains especially in snow / ice without a very lightweight sleeping bag and bivvi.

Why.. Because accidents happen so easily and whilst you are never a million miles away from help… Why get cold if you can avoid it. Oh and good pain relief !

Bundle the crampons up point to point and shove them under the top flap. 35 years of doing this has yet to create any sort of rip. A bag is something else to loose.
Leave the jacket at home and take that gilet thing as the spare layer.
If you carry a lot of bits eg flask, bug bag of sarnies ete then you need a bigger sack.

Crampons on the outside. Ditch the carrying case for them. Get a dry bag to put your stuff in inside your pack. Layers instead of bulk will keep you warmer and easier to regulate temperature. If your winter skills course is any good they will be advising on all this. Experiment a lot is the best way.

My sack (phnar phnar) is one I’ve had for a few years and is biggest I have – on summer walks I’ll take a smaller one or even a Camelbak as you need far less kit.
I wear gaiters in the snow which have toughened patches on the calves.
I’d normally wear a baselayer and Windstopper softshell and carry a Paclite coat, the gilet, hat, buff, gloves, survival bag, food, 2 ltr bladder, headtorch etc etc map & compass – a flask too if long cold walk.
Kenny – its not so much the weight but the bulk that’s the issue with the coat – that would keep me snug overnight though I only intend (at this stage) doing the Lakes and N Wales – no mega-wilderness in Scotland.
Dont really want to buy a new rucksack to accommodate a new coat 😉

I would have thought you should be able to fit all that in a 30 litre sack. As said, strap crampons to the outside. Do you need the paclite or flask? You could take less water if there are streams to refill. Not familiar with that Lowe Alpine jacket, however I find my down jacket can be persuaded into a pretty small space. Is the plus 6 due to a floating lid?

I would say your pack is too small for winter hill walking. If I were you I would take the jacket rather than gilet if you have to choose.

I use a 45l pack in winter which doubles up as my summer pack when camping. Pack what you would need to keep you alive in winter conditions in case you are caught out and become benighted on the hill. I always take a extra set of mid-layers (fleece) and an insulating over layer (down or primaloft)for stops. An emergency bivi or bothy bag and a cut to size section of closed cell rollmat always gets packed along with several spare pairs of hats and gloves as well as extra pair of socks.

Winter packs can get a bit heavy lugging around the extra layers and equipment, but on the plus side, it is good training and you will be fitter come spring/summer when you get to swap again with the lighter pack.

Check out http://www.mcofs.org.uk/winter-essential-information.asp for some winter advice.

I thought you’d gone mad for a minute, till I realised you weren’t just packing to walk up Winter Hill.

do I have too much stuff or is my rucksack too small?

Depends. You won’t know until you go out and try it. Usually safer to have too much than too little.

In a nutshell: do I need this coat or should I MTFU with my gilet?

Again, depends – I’d rarely go far in the hills in winter without a decent jacket but there are times that I’d risk it.

What’s the best way to carry crampons anyway?

And again, depends. Usually it’s their spiky and not-very-packableness that makes them a problem rather than weight. If I have space I keep them inside the bag, at the bottom if I’m hoping not to use them, under the lid if I am going to have them on and off. If I’ve got a lot of stuff then I put them outside – spikes will damage lightweight and soft things unless protected well – but if they interfere with axes/ skis (and if there’s a lot of taking things on and off) it can be annoying.

FWIW, I don’t do that much winter walking, but for winter climbing or ski touring I’d get away with a 35 litre sack for almost all day trips (even with basic overnight/emergency kit). Taking into account the extra gear these typically require over walking, I’d suggest that you could maybe pack more cleverly. Having said that, what your priorities are will depend on what you’re comfortable with and the conditions as much as anything else so you might need to experiment a bit (erring on the side of caution) until you find a balance that suits you.

athgray – yep, the 6 is the lid – where my food lives.
Based on what I’v e – and thanks for the wide ranging answers 😉 – I would like to keep the coat, but will try strapping the crampons in their bag to the outside. I wont be buying a new rucksack – if I cant get the setup to work I’ll take the coat back.
Has anyone ever taken the crampons out and NOT used them?

Frequently. In fact, more often taken and NOT used than used.

Rascal – there is some great advice above.
Please don’t base what kit you judge as needed and safe, based on sticking to a rucksack that you happen to have.
Please don’t head into serious winter hills without the knowledge, skills and judgement you need to stay safe – get on that winter course ASAP.

Has anyone ever taken the crampons out and NOT used them?

Yes, often, but best to take them as you will not necessarily know when you need them. Ice axe is an ever present during winter conditions though.

If the jacket is too bulky maybe a Montane Prism and some other layers. Plus do definitely get an emergency bivvy, something like http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/tarps-bivis-bothies/all-bothies-bothy-bags/bothy-2/

Some good tips on BBC one at the moment.

As nobody has commented and this joke is time dependant, I would like to point out I was referring to the programme “The naked rambler”

Fnnnar

Agree with what others have posted re the pack size, I tend to use a 50 (I can get a rope in, plus gear, plus all the usual stuff) and I rarely feel like i’m wearing a massive pack.

One thing, when they cover winter navigation on your course, practise it as much as you can afterwards so that it’s engrained. Winter navigation is a whole different ball game. Trying to work out where you’re supposed to be heading on the Cairngorm plateau at 6pm when you’re knackered, it’s pitch black, blowy as hell and you can’t even see your map because of the snow is a horrible place to realise you haven’t practised enough (speaking from experience here!) 🙂

Another +1 for the Terra Nova bothy. I’ve got one and it’s a huge boost if you’re on a big day and just need a break from brutal weather to sort yourself out.

Crampons should definitely be on the outside of the sac, unwrapped and accessible for quick use in an emergency. Before setting off, untangle the straps, check they actually fit your boots and are in good nick.

globalati +1

Also, if you’re hitting a bit of steepening ground, stick them on sooner rather than later. It can be quite awkward to put crampons on on steep ground!

If I was to lash the crampons on the outside, that would certainly help with space on the inside…enabling me to keep the as yet unworn coat that’s causing the issue in the first place…

There’s definitely a balancing act between taking too much and getting slow, and taking too little and getting caught out!

The old adage goes that if you take too much gear (bivvies, stoves etc) you’ll probably end up needing to use it – ie it will slow you down to the extent that you are at higher risk of being benighted or caught by approaching poor weather.

I’d recommend the discipline of trying to get enough kit stowed in your 30L sack before you buy some enormous bergen. As said, crampons in a tough bag lashed to the outside, not at the bottom, as you’ll be grateful for this when you need them. Food accessible, water accessible, headtorch/compass etc accessible.

45l is what I use for a winter day sack. 70l for backpacking
What will hold a lot will hold a little and it’s better to have and not need etc

I’ve done the Glenmore winter walking course with the same Berghaus rucksack and could fit everything in it required for the course, although it was a bit of a push. I agree that the rucksack is rubbish for winter walking due to the odd back shape(it is for summer as well but that’s a different story). Crampons went in bottom section, that has separate entry, then in a crampon bag, but that wasn’t ideal. Ice axe on outside on the shoulder straps for accessibility. One tip from the instructors was to dispense with carrying waterproof trousers and just wear them from the off, over thermals leggings. Saves trying to put them on, on a wet windy hillside, and also bag space.

Personally I’d try and resist going bigger than 35L for winter walking, as your bag will end up so heavy that you are too slow to move quickly.

Also I’d question if a heavy jacket is required for stopping, far better not to stop. Then get something more suitable for emergencies if incapacitated e.g. bivvy bag & sleeping bag, that packs down well.

I thought you’d gone mad for a minute, till I realised you weren’t just packing to walk up Winter Hill.

Winter Hill is the reason Bolton Mountain rescue exists, I have overloaded and over compensated for the weather when walking up there in winter on numerous occasions and had to bail idiots out in trainers and jumpers. And as you state, it is only a hill!

I can’t really understand your problem; if you want to carry the big coat (which I definitely would) why can’t you just roll it up and strap it underneath the lid of the rucsac? That way it’s instantly accessible for when you stop. Also on the outside should be those crampons, unwrapped and ready for use and of course the ice axe, strapped to the sac on the approach but possibly shoved under a strap over your shoulder on mixed terrain, ready to grab at a second’s notice. Everything else goes inside the sac for less urgent access.

The old adage goes that if you take too much gear (bivvies, stoves etc) you’ll probably end up needing to use it – ie it will slow you down to the extent that you are at higher risk of being benighted or caught by approaching poor weather

A good adage for the Alps I think, but for winter in the UK I think erring on the side of caution is the better option as you tend not to be heading out for a quick dash in a weather window, and more often go out in the crap hoping it doesn’t get crapper (but knowing it probably will!).

If you’re going out in a group, think what you can share between you (bothy bag, first aid equipment, etc.). I’d also heavily recommend taking a pair of clear/yellow goggles (cheapest ones you can find) with you as they can make a massive difference if you’re caught out in a blizzard.

Also as noted above, a short course can be massively beneficial, hiring an independent instructor between a few friends doesn’t work out that expensive and you’ll learn some invaluable skills, and possiblty have the opportunity (depending on confidence) to do some things you maybe wouldn’t attempt on your own.

All in, start off taking too much, experience will guide you as to what to leave behind.

Ditch the gilet if you’re carrying the jacket, just seems like a redundant item. The backpack ought to be able to hold it all but looking at it, it is a funny shape. The jacket should be at the top of your pack so you can sling it on as soon as you stop and this means if your pack is overfilled you can just vaguely stuff it in the top as best you can and then cinch the lid straps over it.

@globalati +1 – roll the coat, put it a plastic bag to keep it dry and strap it outside the pack

Has anyone ever taken the crampons out and NOT used them?

Very often. Also been out without them when I should definitely have had them. Much more irritating. Failed to put them on when I should have leading to floundering about on ridiculous slopes trying to get them on. Take them and put them on early. Incidentally I like crampon bags.

Ski poles are useful on modest slopes where an axe wouldn’t help much. Not much cop for self arrest though!

A really good book on winter walking (and climbing):

Thanks for all the replies folks.
Had a bit of a play this evening so here’s an update for those who aren’t bored to tears yet.

Crampons with spikes facing each other (not in bag) are now strapped through plastic loops on the outside bottom of the rucksack – tucked out the way and easy access.
This has freed up space internally, so insulated jacket in dry bag in main compartment for stops.
Bottom zip up section has Paclite trousers, spare socks, gaiters (which I’ll more than likely be wearing anyway), spare hat, gloves, snood, old-skool orange survival bag. Paclite coat inside for rain duties.
Flask in one external pocket, water in other (usually have Camelbak bladder inside but no chance now). Food/energy drink in the 6 litre top flap section. Knife/headtotch etc in pocket under top section.
I’ll play around more with the ordering of stuff but basically that’s what fits in/on.

The sack has a waterproof cover so I need to see if the crampons foul the way that sits.

Some people mention wearing thermal leggings with waterproof trousers on from the outset – do you get sweaty when it’s not raining or no probs? TBH mine have full length zips so venting not a problem anyway.
If I’m carrying a big warm coat, would I need to carry any other layers?

It’s not ideal but I’m happier with kit than I was this time last night…could prob do with some small Exped drybags as one I’ve got is way too big. Ice axe slots through the compression straps of one of the side pockets. Map will be carried or in trouser pocket.

All this is within the confines of a bedroom – real world practice run needed.

Does this sound feasible?

Summer walking is so much less hassle! 🙂

In winter I normally wear Polartec Power-Stretch tights which are pretty windproof and shed light rain. If it gets really foul I stick on GTX over trousers, but it has to be really pissing down. On top I normally wear a shelled fleece (Power Shield Pro) and again only don a GTX shell if it’s really wet. Waterproofs don’t breathe well enough for my liking.

Folks saying 30l is too small for a winter walking bag and that they use a 45l for winter walking.

I say different:

If you need 45l for winter walking I think you are carrying too much. I get everything I need for winter climbing in a 45l bag with space to spare and nothing bar axes on the outside. So that’s everything you need for winter walking plus a 60m rope, helmet, harness and half a climbing rack.

Have a good hard look at what you’re taking.

for those who aren’t bored to tears yet.

I’m busying writing a report so this is a welcome distraction!

Crampons … on the outside bottom of the rucksack

Just be careful when you put you rucksack in the car at the end of the day if you value your bumper paint! 😉

Flask in one external pocket, water in other

Your water may well freeze if it’s cold… I normally pack my bottle next to my flask with both against my back to reduce the chance of this. Also, fill up you bottle in the morning with boiling water and squash to help (plus potential of a warm drink in the first few hours).

sack has a waterproof cover

I have a chocolate fireguard opinion of these, especially when caught in string wind! For critical kit always use a proper roll-top dry bag (ideally get a big one to use as a rucksack liner).

Ice axe slots through the compression straps of one of the side pockets.

Be very careful with this, depending on the exact design of your rucsack they can work loose and fall out – use a proper ice axe loop if you have one. If you start to get into ground where you think you might need it put it in your hand! A handy tip can be to slot it down between your rucsack and you back (more comfortable than it sounds) which means you can reach over your shoulder and pull it out if needed).

Not sure if said before, but when you put your crampons on always put your gaiters on – this can save putting holes in more expensive trousers! Also, have a bit practice on the flat wearing crampons – walking like you’ve ridden a horse for the past two weeks is good form so you don’t catch the spikes on your own feet!

As you say, get out there and give it a go!*

*Note: First time you go out it will be ~15 degrees and raining so you’ll ditch half your stuff. Second time you go out it’ll be -plenty and you’ll wish you hadn’t. Third time you’ll start to get it right!