Punishment Passes – Is there anything you can do?

Just thumping on the side of your car with your fist makes a pretty loud and surprising noise inside the vehicle. It might make them think about how close they could have come to actually causing an accident.

You need to be prepared for just even more anger of course.

I Couldn’t be more opposed to their economic policies but I might just vote for them on the basis of that proposed change.

Hmmmm…something to think about.

rickmeister – Member ……I think driving is only stressful because we deal with it and interact with others in a manner which makes it so.

and we create a lifestyle (horrible word) and an economy which is “busy” and need us to get from A to B whilst dropping at C and sorting out D and totally reliant on cars to do it plus rather than order for example the car parts or tyres the garage knows they will need later in the week – its order am deliver pm same on food for pubs, plasterboard etc etc and then we all get fed up with the obvious tactics of a totally selfish minority

had my picture in the local paper with my daughter and her school chums who’d successfully campaigned for a crossing on a main commuter road near there school – got finger waived at me by someone I vaguely new as a parent at the school – conversation went something like “bloody crossing, I have to leave home 5 minutes earlier now”. me “really?”. her “it’s alright for you, you can walk to school, I have to drop the kids and get to work” me “breakfast club at the school is in danger of closing because not enough people use it”. her “f you”

sorry long story and I wasn’t sympathetic, I know not everyone can control their lives but just making the effort to leave 5 minutes earlier and be responsible for your own actions when driving would make a big difference to safety for vulnerable road users

and don’t get me started on how we need so much expensive and dislocating road infrastructure to deal with peak hour traffic

People think more about their cars than they do us. Fact. We got run off the road on the tandem, single track road, only room for one vehicle at a time and the bloke charged past pushing us off the road.

He stopped very soon after and I had a word. He treat us with total dismissive contempt until I slapped the side of his 4×4. It made a massive noise but obviously no damage.

At that point he wanted to ‘engage’ and went into a bit of a rage being very very rude in the process. That’s when I decided the Marquise of Queensbury should be employed (to my eternal shame).

Idiotic, selfish act escalates into near brawl. Not a good day for anyone.

This has to stop.

I do think drivers and cyclists are getting further apart though at the minute. As a non-commuting cyclist I find myself having to google half the phrases and terms used in these threads. Inventing a new lexicon helps cyclists discuss these issues with each other, but it doesn’t help educate drivers to what they are doing wrong. As someone said earlier – drop the fancy terms and call incidents for what they are.

The phrase “don’t attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity” is very apt here too. The vast majority of drivers do not realize they are causing any danger. Drivers are used to squeezing through gaps in towns and cities with inches to spare between them and other vehicles, the roads would be a standstill if they didn’t. So telling them they need to give cyclists as much room as they do other cars is just moronic. They should do exactly the opposite in most cases!!

I have been in cars with drivers behind a bike in primary (a term they had never hear of) and they genuinely thought the cyclist was being a **** deliberately. This stuff needs explaining.

Plenty of good ideas for retribution on this thread. I don’t think that approach will end good for anyone. The jersey with the sign above isn’t a bad idea but maybe someone less patronising like “I need more room than you think” or such.

Proper infrastructure is the answer. But better coping tactics for the current situation could be used I think. At the minute the roads seem to be getting more dangerous and both sides of the solution are drifting further apart.

Didn’t someone here mention that the Green Party have said they would introduce an assumed liability law in cases where a cyclist has been knocked off/killed?

Presumed/Strict Liability would be a good step forward in my opinion, not just for HGVs (as Natalie Bennett was pushing) but for all drivers.

Sadly lots of people are massively against it, often with no real understanding of what it actually means.

Just read the negative comments from fellow cyclists on the road.cc coverage of this story:
https://www.facebook.com/roadcc/photos/a.395296355613.177154.57482865613/10152717512250614/
http://road.cc/content/news/148052-when-lorries-hit-cyclists-driver-should-have-prove-they-are-not-liable-says

People typically complain that it is “guilty till proven innocent – that’s not the way UK justice works”, despite the fact that it relates to civil liability, not criminal guilt, and that we already use presumed liability in other cases (i.e. when hit from behind in your car).

We are one of only five EU countries (along with Cyprus, Malta, Romania and Ireland) that does not operate system of strict liability for vulnerable road users.

More good info here:
http://www.cycling-accident-compensation.co.uk/strict-liability.aspx

I haven’t read all of the posts here, and clearly anyone in car has a responsibility, being in a protected hard shell, to ensure the safety of those who don’t, i.e. cyclists, walkers etc. I always overtake bikes as if they are a car i.e. in the other half of the road.
HOWEVER…I do think it would be good if cyclists could try to be considerate at times too, there should be a two way relationship. I am a mtb’er so spend as little time on the road as I can, but often end up on a long uphill slog on the road back to my house having gotten over-enthusiatic with the downhill near to me. My approach to cycling up this long windy uphill is that if a car is coming I stop and let them past. This takes a couple of seconds, and saves me the horrible feeling of a car driving slowly behind me, and helps the motorist. Too often I see road bikers cycling 2 abreast up or along a windy road, pointedly not getting out of the way as if to prove a point. I don’t give them abuse or try to drive close to them but I wish they would try to be considerate too.
Equally on a very narrow road if I see a cyclist coming towards me I will often stop my car to let them go by. Do they give me a thank you? Most of the time – no, they just cycle by without a sign that they have even noticed! I get the impression that most cyclists view car drivers as the enemy, even though they will largely drive themselves quite often.
Anyway my point is that if both sides could try to be helpful to each other things might work out a lot better!

I have been in cars with drivers behind a bike in primary (a term they had never hear of) and they genuinely thought the cyclist was being a **** deliberately. This stuff needs explaining.

Some campaigns do try, but they get largely ignored.

http://think.direct.gov.uk/cycling.html

GrahamS – I’m not inclined to be against assumed liability, but do road safety stats bear out that those countries that don’t have it also have the most cyclists injured/killed per capita?

If so I’d say it’s a no-brainer. If not, it becomes a meaningless stat and probably not something to be pushed.

Some campaigns do try, but they get largely ignored.

I’ve never seen either of them, but yeah that’s the type of thing. What happened to public information broadcasts?!

I suppose it’s funding. If it was a question of economics it would probably have been sorted by now.

GrahamS – I’m not inclined to be against assumed liability, but do road safety stats bear out that those countries that don’t have it also have the most cyclists injured/killed per capita?

It’s trickier than that to compare since every country has its own level of general road safety.

For example in the hallowed Netherlands the fatality rate for cyclists is very low (just 9 per billion km cycled), but then the overall fatality rate for all road users is pretty low to (4.9 per billion km).

So comparing that to somewhere like Bulgaria where the fatality rate for all users is 19.1 per billion km is tricky.

And of course there are other conflating factors (richer countries tend to have better healthcare and modern cars with better pedestrian safety, so people may still be as likely to be hit but are more likely to survive).

As for the UK, by most measures our roads are actually pretty safe. But the Killed-Or-Seriously-Injured rate for cyclists is notably high and the number of journeys made by bike is very low.

Perhaps the clearest measure is to see how much riskier it is to cycle in a country compared to driving. You can see in this graph that the UK actually does better than the Netherlands for driving risk, but in the UK cycling is 13 times more likely to kill you than driving, whereas there is far less disparity in the Netherlands (just 4.4 times).

Sauce: http://drawingrings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/no-cycling-is-not-safer-in-britain-than.html

I’ve contemplated giving up commuting to work by bike a few times over the last year or so due to the constant danger other road users put me in. Sometimes it is my fault (I don’t count those) as not everyone’s perfect but it’s gone from one or two a week to one or two every journey on the same route! One thing I have noticed is that if I’m on the hybrid bike I usually use I get more trouble as I’m going closer to the speed of the cars so it’s harder for them to overtake in small stretches. I’ve used my mountain bike a few times recently and the slower speed of me (and possibly the fact I look less like a roadie 😉 ) means I get given a bit more room. Only an extra 30 cm or so but that’s the difference between a close pass and being clipped off.
The other thing I’ve noticed is that the road markings make a huge difference. Here in Cardiff the council are resurfacing everywhere so the lines are being repainted. The bike lanes are double or triple the width the old red paint was and in most areas the central line is missing until you get close to a junction or crossing, like they do in a lot of French towns. Cars are going slower and being much more courteous at these points. Could be temporary until they figure it all out but it’s a thinking point.

muddydwarf
Its amazing the number of people I consider friends, who know I cycle and yet are happy to complain about cyclists to me & how they feel like doing something to them.
I’ve stopped associating with a couple of them because of their comments.

Same here, mostly well educated and well off friends too! One’s a consultant in A&E and sees the consequences regularly.

What happened to public information broadcasts?!

Good message – terrible implementation:

God that’s awful! Even the “serious message” at the end is poor and confined to the last few seconds.

Yeah, it got pretty badly slated at the time.

I can see what they were trying do: keep it light-hearted, non-accusing and accessible. Don’t show horrible graphic shock images as that will just put people off cycling.

But it was a failure.

The Think/DfT posters above are better, but they are a little terse. Could do with some good quality TV adverts expanding on them, e.g. explaining why cyclists sometimes ride in the primary and that they are allowed and encouraged to do so.

An TV spot explaining “road tax” wouldn’t go amiss either 😀

I see better infrastructure and segregated lanes was mentioned above.

If that is something you want and you are in the North East them please consider coming along to the Space For Cycling mass ride next Saturday in Newcastle.

Or if you are one of those funny Scotch types then the Pedal On Parliament ride is happening in Edinburgh on the same day[/url].

Make your voice heard.

Oh dear,

Had a bit of a shouty confrontation on a road ride today after work – bloke figured there was plenty of room for him and me through a calming chicane (here, except my back wheel was on the 8 ) with “my” direction clearly having priority and a sign to tell him that. His explanantion, after I’d skidded to a stop just before the gap and he’d then come through it anyway was that I should’ve been in the gutter, then there would have been room for him.

I’m glad to say he drove off just as I was wondering how I could stop myself kicking in a few panels on his car.

I’m embarrassed to say I turned round and tried to chase him but gave up after a couple of miles. I like to think it was to get his reg, but I’m not even convincing myself of that. 🙁

wrecker – Member
Is it worth mentioning that these;

Go for very cheap on ebay?

I had about half a dozen incidents last winter that made me want that. Funny ol thing, it hasn’t happened in any of the 3 summers I’ve been riding to work.

I’ve noticed this has really ramped up in recent years and has been encouraged in the media, particularly newspaper columnists, on the basis car drivers (I’m one) as well as a cyclist pay tax and we don’t.

I’ve actually heard people talk as though it’s fair game to run over and injure cyclists and drive off, like we are sub human.

****-em they know exactly what they’re doing, trying to create a hostile environment to discourage cyclists. Tooled up seems like the answer, nobody likes a ripped tyre wall and when they dare to get out give-it-em. Unfortunately IMO it will take a number of serious incidents before anything changes.

****-em they know exactly what they’re doing, trying to create a hostile environment to discourage cyclists. Tooled up seems like the answer, nobody likes a ripped tyre wall and when they dare to get out give-it-em. Unfortunately IMO it will take a number of serious incidents before anything changes.

I hope you are either big, or a little bit psycho because someone will one day swing at you or restrain you and next up….criminal damage charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_property

I’m hot headed, always stand my ground and it’s brings me no end of trouble….almost entirely with 50-60 year old blokes who probably have issues related to impotence.

Well you have got to mean business, swing first don’t even bother mouthing off, preferably as they are getting out of the door off balance, most of these passive aggressive turds aren’t fit to be called men.

Fair enough, just don’t do it if your not prepared to do the time.

This is why I’ve given up riding on the roads, I’d see red and end up bashing someones skull in with a car door. I have a wife now, my life is going somewhere – not worth it.

It’s about time cyclists stopped neglecting the upper body and got a bit of boxing training in 😈

For defense purposes.

Meh, it’s all fun and games when your 18 to early 20’s.

Stay safe guys, don’t throw your lives away because….cycling.

Be prepared to defend yourselves, don’t get done for property damage or assault.

One of my oldest friends told me last year he deliberately passes cyclists as close as he can to try and scare them off the road……we aren’t friends any more

punish passed this morning by an HGV pulling one of our trailers we sold off a year or so ago that I nearly ended up under!

wouldnt mind but i was still fuming from being pushed along a roundabout and then given abuse by a guy i’d riden past a few minutes earlier loading his few month old baby into the car outside his house. going to knock on tonight and have a word.

all of which follows the daft bint who pulled straight into side of the car in front of me last night on the ride home. didnt look once. Gave witness details to the woman in front – if she wasnt there it would have been me.

I do feel like I’m gambling (with pretty big odds) every time I commute by bike and the noobs I saw last summer on my route following the post olympic/TDF/Wiggo cycling uprising are no longer pedalling – either dead or put off by the attitude to cyclist.

What a profoundly depressing thread. My take is that it’s a combination of the ‘me, me, me’ society we’ve built plus people who are genuinely stupid or have issues and a transport infrastructure that, for all the pious words of successive governments, marginalises anything that’s not motorised transport.

Of the three, the only one that’s feasible to change any time soon is the latter, which is why you should vote Green, except that our unrepresentative electoral system means that’s pretty pointless in a pragmatic sense.

My personal take is to avoid busy A-roads that I know are used by people in a hurray and are fast / twisty / that annoying width that’s just a little too narrow (A624 from Hayfield towards Chapel for example for those who know it) and stick to minor roads and back lanes where possible. There are some roads I just stay off, the Woodhead Pass for example – cross bikes are good for bypassing nastiness.

That has its own drawbacks, but you don’t meet cars as often and speeds are generally lower. I also try to avoid riding during rush hour because commuters tend to leave their brains at home with their used breakfast crockery and ride defensively and considerately where I can.

But as a few people have said already, what we really need is a combination of a more cycling-friendly infrastructure and a legal and social environment which makes it unacceptable to endanger cyclists’ lives.

All the thread does is confirm that world is full of pricks.

A few weeks ago we were cycling along the road between Hathersage and Hope at about 9am on a Sunday. There is a crappy painted bike lane but being a rural road it’s always full of shit. Being a nice sunday morning we were cycling 2 up and chatting as is both pleasant and perfectly legal but this meant to avoid the shit in the gutter one of us was on the edge of the cycle lane and one on the road. But since it was 9am on a Sunday in the middle of a national park, on a wide empty road, nobody is going to get held up anywhere.

However some angry prick took such an afront to us cycling on the road when there was a cycle lane that he performed a punnishment pass and then drove the next 500m up the road in the cycle lane as if to say “If you’re going to cycle on my roads, I’m going to drive in your bike lane”. What a ****.

How does someone get that angry by 9am on a Sunday?

The only answer to this is for people to realise how vulnerable cyclists are on the roads. Drivers don’t do this because they are muderous, they do it because they are so protected in their metal boxes that they don’t realise they are driving round in a lethal weapon.

What a profoundly depressing thread

Yes it is. How about some balance:

On the ride home Tuesday, the day I had the original experience, I hooked up with a chap called Mark from Dorking CC. He was heading back to Westcott, me to Dorking. We shared the ride home, I showed him my route via the back roads over Headley Common and we had a fantastic training session, egging each other on and having a much better ride home as a result.

Then there’s ‘Mr Mercian’. I usually see him somewhere between Epsom and Morden and he rides the most gorgeous British Racing Green Mercian I’ve seen. We always say hello and chat.

‘Mr Roberts’ is a big lad. 1.9m tall and built like a second row rugby player. He’s powerful on the bike and has in his garage four Chas Roberts bikes, with the one I see him on being a very lovely cream coloured Reynolds 953 affair. When he kicks on the short incline before the mosque in Morden it’s all I can to keep his wheel.

There’s the girl who rides a Condor Squadra and works as a teacher. I’ve met her partner as well a few times as well on separate occassions and he’s very quick.

I sometimes see Njee from here on my way in. He’s a thoroughly nice chap as well. It’s great riding his wheel and feeling like I’ve come a long way since I started commuting in on the bike (30kg lighter, a fair bit quicker)

Yesterday on my way in I caught up with Gordon at the top of Box Hill. He’s a former Regimental Seargent Major from the infantry. 25 years service but now works as a Bursary for a financial services company in Mitcham. He’s 60 years young but twice a week he rides to work over Box Hill. His last posting was to Bosnia where he worked with UNHCR as a peace keeper.

There’s another chap I’ve seen a few times who rides from Dorking to, I think, Hammersmith. He’s distinguished by the fact he wears very smart 3/4 length trousers rather than bibs or tights and by the fact that he’s really quick. Lovely chap but hwile I can just about keep his wheel on a clear run, I always lose him in the traffic so I don’t know so much about him.

These are all the people I’ve met and learnt something positive about. It’s very rewarding; it’s very positive. Yes there are c***s you experience along the way, but there are far more good people I’ve met as a result of riding in.

I’d draw the line at opening a rear door or folding a mirror.

Sometimes you have to make a point, though.

About 6 weeks ago I was cycling to club at 8:30 on a Sunday morning with herself, heading through Twickenham a gent in a people carrier took massive affront to us being on the empty roads. So he did the revving engine, sudden braking, accelerating again, swerving side to side thing that all these angry people do. I responded with a cheery wave and the International Symbol for “You Fellate Men” which of course properly set him off as he was looking in his rear view mirror to see what we would do. So he then decided to really swerve violently into the kerb over the cycle lane to show us how wrong we were. All that happened was that he hit the kerb and a loose drainage cover which flipped up and burst both near side tyres and took some body work away with it as well. He then drove off crab style at high speed hung a right and stopped. He got a cheery wave as went past at the same pace as we’d been doing beforehand, still side by side, still talking.
Amazingly a had a BMW driver not take my elbows off last night but waited for me to get past a width restricted piece of road, before overtaking me leaving space!

he hit the kerb and a loose drainage cover which flipped up and burst both near side tyres and took some body work away with it as well

😀

Not that I’m a quick rider, but it does feel that lots of vehicles pass us assuming we’re stationary when clearly we’re not

So they pull in quicker than they need to, particularly for long vehicles like buses and lorries

The front tucks in a way past you but the back comes by closer than ideal

he hit the kerb and a loose drainage cover which flipped up and burst both near side tyres and took some body work away with it as well

Now that’s entertainment 😀

he hit the kerb and a loose drainage cover which flipped up and burst both near side tyres and took some body work away with it as well

Problem is, that when he re-tells that story it’s probably all still your fault for making him do it 🙁

That’s what’s depressing, just see the ‘Daftest thing said’ thread for examples.

What was interesting, round here in the Peak at least, was how during the Wiggo Tour de France winning period and last year’s Yarkshire Depart, drivers generally became a lot more considerate and friendly. It was almost as if it legitimised cycling on a temporary basis. And then they forgot again.

Slightly depressing thread.
My 2p – most drivers I think are actually fairly decent people. A lot of close passes are inattentive rather than aggressive – not much consolation if they hit you of course!

like some others I used to get shouty/wave fists etc. Eventually I realised that it made me feel worse not better and I attempted to take a more Zen approach, which does help for me anyway. I have had the odd calm chat to someone with positive results – and in my more shouty days have had a few screaming matches which probably just made matters worse for cyclists as a whole.

I think reporting deliberate close passes/attempted hit and runs is worth doing.

It is much easier to be “zen” about your cycling when your personal life is going ok. Currently I am finding it very hard indeed to be “zen” and so make a conscious effort not to let things get to me.

Currently I am finding it very hard indeed to be “zen” and so make a conscious effort not to let things get to me.

i try to imagine my hands are duct taped to the handlebars so i can’t make pointless gesture responses to idiot horn blasting / passenger verbals etc etc

works most of the time – though I do ride to get places cycling for me is supposed to be relaxing – as you say requires a conscious effort to keep it that way – just let the dicks be dicks

as to some of the points above – unless you want to follow it through rule number XXXXX is “never bang on the vehicle”

rule XXXXX-1 is its not worth it

Last driver that drove uncomfortably close to me during an overtake I reported to the local police and recieved this reply,

Thank you for using the Cumbria Constabulary e-mail facility. This site is monitored 0800-2000 hours but is for general enquiries.

In response to your report, thank you for providing the details requested. Please note the driver of the vehicle in question will be sent an advisory letter.

Please regard this message as receipt of your email to Cumbria Constabulary.

If we may be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us. If you require police assistance please contact us through our telephone channels by dialling the new non-emergency number of 101, or in an emergency ring 999.

Thank you.

Help Desk
Force Control Room
Cumbria Constabulary

Hopefully it’ll make more people think, I’ve seen the same vehicle since and been given appropriate space.

For arguements sake – could a a punishment pass be construed as an Assault?

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

A battery is committed when a person intentionally and recklessly applies unlawful force to another.”

my bold…

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a07

For arguements sake – could a a punishment pass be construed as an Assault?

Yes*
http://road.cc/content/news/134820-road-rage-driver-convcited-assaulting-two-cyclists-who-were-duty-police-officers

“assaulting Constable McMahon due to the fear of injury caused to the latter by passing him with only two or three feet to spare”

*If you’re a police officer,it would appear, happy to be proven wrong if anyone else has had a driver convicted of assault from a no-contact pass. I’ve given the police video of me being physically sideswiped off the road and been either ignored entirely or told “It’s very bad driving but we’re not going to do anything about it”.