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Chatting to the chief trail pixie yesterday, with 6 ongoing lawsuits against the crown for injuries on the trails aparently they've begun checking permits.
No idea what the consequences of not having one are, but I suspect the ultimate consequence if they have 6 lawyers chasing them, and people refusing to cough up £20 a year to ride there, might be a big fence and a "no cycling" sign.
Remember this it's private land, and £20 is less than a couple of rounds down the local.
why the hell would you bring a lawsuit against swinley??
If you crash it's your fault. Granted someone may crash into you, but that's part of the deal.
Wish you could just get a day permit via txt and keep the ref on your phone... That would save a bit of hassle for those not wanting a year pass etc
just pay at the checkout/ reception
6 ongoing lawsuits? That's ****in ridiculous - what do you reckon to it being parents of kids who've fluffed one of the jumps? You just have to hope that these clowns don't persuade the landowners to stop all biking there...
So if you ride without a permit you can sue them? OK....
Some people are like that though. Of course on the other hand, it might be that someone claimed on their insurance for a crash (loss of earnings or whatever) and the insurance company is suing.
This sort of thing is why Esher Shore is shutting
£2 for a day pass
Saw 3 or 4 kids in jump gulley on inappropriate bikes with no lids yesterday
This sort of thing is why Esher Shore is shutting
No it's not: Esher shore is shutting because not enough people are using it to make it financially viable. It needs to take approx. £200 min /week to be viable and with fewer and fewer people going, they were taking mere fractions of this. That is why it is closing.
Now, the cost of the insurance may be a factor in this, but is not comparable to what this thread is about.
With regard to the OP: I find it unbelievable that someone would sue, but that's me. People seem to be on a mission to rid the South-East of all it's riding venues. It really needs to be sorted out or else we may find us left with no where to ride our bikes.
Pay up as you are nicely asked to, or please stay away and leave it to the rest of us who are willing to contribute.
Wish you could just get a day permit via txt and keep the ref on your phone... That would save a bit of hassle for those not wanting a year pass etc
£2 at reception and sign the list, takes ohhhhhhh 90seonds? Any you get a big sticker to wrap arround your bike 😀
this isn't going to go down well but....
I quite often ride without a pass, just haven't got my arse in gear to get the year pass so always pay on the day - but if the shops shut I still ride, always carry cash so if the guys stop me I'l offer to pay then.
Im not re-working my day just so can buy a pass, if they are shut I still ride.
Went today and bought one, was there after 10.30, well busy though.
In a round about sort of way I've probably paid more overall through not getting a year pass...
Blame culture happens, the absurdities of modern life eh?
Wish you could just get a day permit via txt and keep the ref on your phone... That would save a bit of hassle for those not wanting a year pass etc
Under 16's don't need a permit
Most of the permits money goes into the 3rd party liability, NOT into personal injury cover, you could sue whether you have a permit or not. I guess the "who are the se people suing" last for soem people about as long as it takes for someone to knock on your door and offer you about enough money to pay off your mortgage oif you'll just say you didnt see that jump.
I wonder what the details of the lawsuits are? I try to avoid the place at weekends now as the 2-way trails are suicide in the summer when you can't see more than a few feet in front of you.
GB
>Im not re-working my day just so can buy a pass, if they are shut I still ride.
You can buy annual AND day passes on line BTW.
There aren't many good things to be said about living in Bracknell, I can't think of any right now 😆 But I have got Swinley Forest 5 minutes from my back door, and I'm perfectly happy to pay £20 a year to use it. It's the only thing that makes life here bearable.
[i]Saw 3 or 4 kids in jump gulley on inappropriate bikes with no lids yesterday [/i]
Inappropriate bikes? 30 years ago i was arseing 'bout in a quarry on a road bike...and helmets didn't exist then...
sense of proportion?
I used go early to try and avoid the two-way trail issue, only had a couple of incidents in the time I rode there regularly but you just have to remain aware!!
given the spaz's in their 3/4 Fila tracky bottoms and england tops I've seen riding round there on hugely shit bikes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've hurt themselves on a trail that was beyond their ability whilst showing off to some fat munter with a croydon facelift smoking a fag at the side of the trail.
allthepies - if my computer opens that link ill use it - good point, thanks.
forge197 - speaking of the two-way trail issue...... a guy today literally rode straight into me, so much so he endo'd and it was pretty much me and my bike stopping him from a crash - quite funny but could've been a smash.
If you're reading this I hope your bikes alright, mines fine....
pk-ripper - what, so now chav's/'not so well offs' are not responsible enough to enjoy the country side?! Nice generalization there......get a grip, its there for everyone and everynow and then people hurt themselves, no type of person is anymore pre-disposed to being an idiot than another - but I guess some types of person are more pre-disposed to being judgmental and smug....
viv - that's pretty much what happened to me one morning was a surprise for both involved!!
no type of person is anymore pre-disposed to being an idiot than another
now that's a generalisation
>allthepies - if my computer opens that link ill use it - good point, thanks.
no probs - the site seems to be down currently though
Any idea of the breakdown, ie what percentage of the income from permits divided into trail insurance and maintainance?
These law suits - is it just mtb'ers involved or does Joe Public figure in the scenario?
viv - Memberpk-ripper - what, so now chav's/'not so well offs' are not responsible enough to enjoy the country side?! Nice generalization there......get a grip....but I guess some types of person are more pre-disposed to being judgmental and smug....
Yup, they are. Same as some people deem themselves too important not to disrupt their day just to adhere to the standard rules of a place they *want* (note that's want, not need) to ride.
Can I question some rules then? Why should I as a mtb'er pay for a permit and be told to ride responsibly when Joe Public, ie uncontrolled dogs, untethered kids, idiot parents, etc etc., do not use the Forest in a responsible manner?
If an accident occurs involving a mtb'er, guess who will be blamed?
Apologies for my cynicism. 😳
Count yerself lucky, a horsey permit for Swinley is £170 / year.
How many dogs have personal liability cover? It's normally included within pet insurance but how many folk are prepared to be ripped off for that?
I'm getting worked up now ...
Thisisnot is not a spoon. Re you rely above re txt... it was just an idea... Normally buy in advance and keep the payp receipt on my phone as proof... Sometimes though I just end up at swinley as part of a ride and normally I enter from bag shot end so getting a permit from the lookout is not that handy... Or sometimes it is not open.... Txt payment is simple and might increase rev if simple to do... Like I said it was just an idea... Thanks for jumping down on me for the idea...... Si
C_G,
I was under the impression that the vast majority of the £20 is to cover 3rd party liability for MTB'ers with trail maintenance only benifiting from a small portion.
Dogs, kids, parents, aren't traveling at 30mph round narrow singletrack? If there were no MTB's would ther be any crashes requiring £5million (or whatever it is) 3rd party cover?
if it helps then i *think* that cyclezone in crowthorne is open 'til 7pm most weeknights and they def sell the annual permits, tis where i got the other half's and mine 🙂
at first i was all very angry at the thought of paying to cycle in the woods, especially as dog walkers etc dont have to pay to enter the same woods..... but considering how well kept the trails are and it is private land.... 20 quid for a year is prety awesome! means we can ride there any time of the day and night, no having to plan beforehand and buy a day pass or queue up on busy days etc.
i've had 2 nasty spills at swinley, one has buggered my shoulder up and still get pain with certain movements.. but i wouldn't dream of sueing swinley! as much as i'd like to blame someone else or the condition of the ground etc etc.....rider error, simple as.
From the Gorrick website :-
Where does my money go?* The greater portion pays for the £5 million Public Liability insurance cover, which is a requirement set by the Crown Estate.
* To the Crown Estate for the general upkeep of the amenities of the woods; tracks, fences, signs etc. and to pay for the rangers.
* On administration of the scheme.
* Signage within the forest.
* Any surplus funds are ploughed back into maintaining the excellent singletrack.Why do I need insurance?
* The Public Liability insurance covers you if you are involved in a collision with a member of the public. Please note that your household insurance does not cover you. If you do not have a permit you are trespassing.
So most of our cash goes to the insurers to cover you/them for some ned sueing you/them, and any work on the trails is done with the leftovers. Despite that there has been some trail maintenance this year - the top of the Deerstalker has been repaired, the main part of the Labyrinth has has a load of drainage ditches dug, various unofficial features have been flattened or made safer etc.
If anyone objects to the permit scheme then there's plenty of permit-free riding in the area, much of which is probably as good as or better than 80-90% of Swinley.
[i]if they've hurt themselves on a trail that was beyond their ability [/i]
There are trails like this at Swinley?
Saw 3 or 4 kids in jump gulley on inappropriate bikes with no lids yesterday
given the spaz's in their 3/4 Fila tracky bottoms and england tops I've seen riding round there on hugely shit bikes,
ned
Good to see that every man/woman/child in the woods and not on a £1000+ bike is considered some kind of lower form of society.
At the jumps the other week some muppet on £3k of trek fuel-ex left me speechless after proclaiming to a group of us that we should watch out incase out bikes snapped from the jumping, given that our motley assortment of jump bikes and 456 were more than upto the task I politely told him to get a life. After reading some of that ---------^ looks like he's not the only one with that oppinion.
There are trails like this at Swinley?
Ohhh yes 🙂
And if you think otherwise either your a biking god or havent been looking hard enough 🙂
Really? I ain't no riding deity, but c'mon Swinley? Hard trails?
deary me...
Jump Gulley - cleared everything, including the hip and the drops?
mountainbike area - done all the drops?
That and the shear volume of trails means there's always something 'new', even if it just turns out to be riding a trail you already knew in the opposite direction.
Just my oppinion but people get hung up on 'hard' trails. I can ride most of what's in front of me, even if it has to be completed at trails pace. It's a bit like saying that being a racing driver is easy because you once did a trackday at Silverstone and didn't crash once. Yes, but could you do it at twice that pace?
Dogs, kids, parents, aren't traveling at 30mph round narrow singletrack? If there were no MTB's would ther be any crashes requiring £5million (or whatever it is) 3rd party cover?
Surely everybody has to take responsibility for themselves, their kids and their dogs, granny etc?
On the singletrack, I have seen dog walkers, runners, snoggers. Where is their personal responsibility?
So most of our cash goes to the insurers to cover you/them for some ned sueing you/them, and any work on the trails is done with the leftovers. Despite that there has been some trail maintenance this year - the top of the Deerstalker has been repaired, the main part of the Labyrinth has has a load of drainage ditches dug, various unofficial features have been flattened or made safer etc.
Agree with you there thepurist!
nickc is a very good rider but doing a bit of Monday morning trolling me thinks. 😉
Of course the Crown Estate could always make the car park Pay & Display thus ensuring almost everyone has 3rd party liability insurance cover.
Another nice little earner for them.
when I fell off my apollo 24 speed the trails felt hard against my elbow....
There are trails like this at Swinley?
nobody should be riding swinley without full body armour and proper DH bike!
no excuse for not buying a permit tho.
There is better riding closer to me that isnt motorway like in the summer and a chopped up overused mess in the winter, so i dont bother to make the 30min drive anymore.
Good point above about people not directly taking out lawsuits, but claiming against sports/home insurance for loss of earnings and the insurance company doing it.
Nice to hear details of the ongoing claims
I'll rub it better if you like, viv...
actually in all fairness to swinley - compared to cannock there are no awfully rutted sections and hardly any braking bumps - this could well be because it, ahem, goes both ways....
So with places like Cannock, Forest of Dean etc., is there a permit system? Are these Forestry Commission owned or what?
I really must lose my cynicism that questions whether we get spoonfed tosh from Crown Estate.
[i]compared to cannock there are no awfully rutted sections and hardly any braking bumps [/i]
This is because the 'singletrack' at Swinley is 5 ****ing foot wide in places...
im pretty sure cannock is forestry commission, no permit system, just park and play, think a few car parks are pay and display.
but cannock doesnt have the special heritage trees that create a more dynamic riding experience - that alone is worth paying for....
nickc - trusay.
nickc - Amen! It's not so bad now as the dry weather has meant that a hardpacked line has appeared, but give it a couple of damp weekends and there will be people riding all over the place to avoid getting their tyres wet. I'd be happy for some of my 20 quid to go into signage saying 'Keep our Singletrack Single!' to be stuck up over the winter.
Cannock is FC, you can either pay for an annual permit to get free parking for £50, or pay and display on the day for parking. The trails themselves IIRC are 'free'.
Nickc - the singletrack is about a foot wide for most of it, I reckon. You really sound like you've not explored Swinley properly AT ALL. It's a top place to ride if you put any kind of effort in.
Re responsibility: when you are messing about in a quarry that just happens to be there, you are taking your own responsibility. At Swinly they have [b]provided[/b] a load of trails for our use - because we are using something they've provided, we can in theory sue if it's not safe. If for instance they built a lovely swoopy bit of singletrack that led you round a blind bend and immediately off a cliff, that'd be their fault and you could sue (legally speaking and perhaps morally). They clearly haven't done anything stupid, however, but people are trying to exploit the law - which I am NOT CONDONING in anyway so put your flamethrowers away.
And I bought a permit using Paypal on my phone, and I could show the email to anyone who asked to prove it there and then.
£2 at reception and sign the list, takes ohhhhhhh 90seonds?
Only if you are there during the day, mate 🙂
I paid for a permit last year but didn’t get anything like enough use out of it, now I’ll just stick to day passes but I do always buy one.
Regardless of weather or not Swinley is the dog’s bollocks it is at least an insured, maintained riding venue with a solid local club that puts on regular events, worth the odd couple of quid every time I go there I reckon…
Sadly there’s always going to be some who will choose to sue given half a chance, it’s worth noting that if you pay for a day ticket it does give you liability cover for the day, so if you T-bone some Chav stood in the middle of a trail (we’ve all seen them), any claim he tries to make shouldn’t cost you regardless of the outcome…
I went to Swinley on Saturday and got completely lost away from the Lookout, didn't see a soul for about an hour - found lots of good trails, not sure I could find them again though.
I always thought the 'permit to ride' thing was a running joke... didn't realise it was for real until I read the signs.
cookeaa - Member
... it’s worth noting that if you pay for a day ticket it does give you liability cover for the day, so if you T-bone some Chav stood in the middle of a trail (we’ve all seen them), any claim he tries to make shouldn’t cost you regardless of the outcome…
Cookeaa - straight to the point. That is exactly why it is worth the £2.
Crown Estates are insured - riders are not, unless they buy a permit. So when that chav you tea-bone get's a visit from an Ambulance Chasing Lawyer - guess what? He is going to sue YOU!!! That will be an unholy ballache - courts, phone calls, mountains of paperwork, time off work and a nice fat dent in your bank account at the end of it.
OK, so you go, the trails are so bumpy they haven't had maintenance for years... Oh and didn't the Harry potter filming bring in a LOAD of cash haven't seen any of that spent up their..... (oh not been for a couple of months so please correct me) 😆
molgrips, you've no idea chap, been riding around Swinley on and off for the better part of 15 years. (dear lord, I feel old all of a sudden)
Oh.. well then you are unlucky that you don't like your local riding.
I enjoy your local riding very much 🙂
but i am insured!
do i still have to buy a permit?
yes, them's the rules
Not sure why there's such a "It's not worht £20 a year, but I'll ride there anyway and not pay"
£20 = ~10p/day, probably lose more down the back of the sofa!
If you think its that crap, don't go?
I have ridden there several times since my permit expired in April, but I seriously kept forgetting to renew 🙁
I've got 4 years worth wrapped around my cables.
It's private land so I don't mind paying. FFS it's only £20. If you don't want to pay it go elsewhere.
I've got 4 years worth wrapped around my cables.
think of the weight!
one crap think about the annual permit is that it does not run for 12month from when you by it...
so only valid
Annual Permit = £20
Permits are valid from 1st April 2010 - 31st March 2011
not much incentive to buy one at other times of the year really...
i know there is bound to be an admin thing, colours issued each year etc etc
but
think they would get more sign ups if you permit ran for 12months from date of purchase...
think of the weight!
I ride at Swinley therefore I've got a full 40lbs downhill rig with 10inches of travel both ends. Add to this a full face helmet, back knee, elbow, wrist, neck and crotch pads.
A fully loaded Camelbak with a 5 litre bladder and a full compliment of spares 'cos it's so remote and wild.
GPS and Sat Phone
Not sure three extra bands of plastic are going to make much difference
I ride at Swinley therefore I've got a full 40lbs downhill rig with 10inches of travel both ends. Add to this a full face helmet, back knee, elbow, wrist, neck and crotch pads.
You're the one we nicknamed the Twig (like the Stig, but on a mountainbike) at the gully on Saturday? He was tricking off everything, so we'll forgive him for being and anti social grump in blacked out goggles, black full face and iPod plugged in.
It's not that i don't like it, it's just overused.
I dunno, I've only ever been there on weekday evenings and seen hardly anyone...
[b]Crown Estate announces income surplus of £210.7 million.[/b]
Taken from the home page of their website.
They 'allow' the trails to be built, they do not build them. It's a working forest.
Harry Potter filming caused inconvenience by restricting access to fire roads and some singletrack. For months at a time over a space of several years. Also loss of some car parking capacity. I did not get 'value for money' from my annual permit.
Of course we do not know the income from HP but Bracknell Forest Borough Council also received money from the use of car parking for this.
I did not get 'value for money' from my annual permit.
Bugger off and ride elsewhere then
Easy Tiger 😉
To be fair, the trail pixies have not been able to build/maintain the Swinley Trails, due to it being stopped by the management etc, however they have just been given the green light again....
Hmmm the Swinley M/Ways I do agree with you Nick loL.
Easy Tiger 😉
Never a truer word spoken (or typed)
Could someone point me in the direction of these motorways? I feel I'm missing out on these trails I've not found yet.
Trail from the top of the full nine yard to the green bench for starters
Yeah, unfortunately anywhere that's flat tends to get widened by people trying to avoid getting water or mud on their mountain bicycles. Not much we can do about that.
anjs - Member
Trail from the top of the full nine yard to the green bench for starters
Known as the "Crowthorne Highway" by some...
I did not get 'value for money' from my annual permit.
C_G - It's private land. If you don't feel you get value for money, you have the choice not ride there.
ive found aston hill to be much better value over the last year in terms of built trails.
its nice that i can still go to swinley and pay on the day though - perhaps i will schedule a visit after the summer holidays are over.
my 'out the door' riding is easily as good as swinley so the traffic & travel make it a less regular haunt.
Aston Hill is a different sort of ride though. I'd never get my wife around Aston XC loop, never mind the other runs, but she'd be happy to pootle around Swinley for a few hours.
I like Swinley for an occasional ride and there's plenty of ground to cover without doing trails twice if you know your way around. On the other hand, yes it can get a bit crowded and some of the trails get ruined over winter. Still, it's another local place to ride and fits okay with the other places I go.
Swinley clearly dont want riding on there considering they have banned trail maintenance....A rigid SS is clearly the minimalist way to go there especially in the winter 😆