Prince Andrew, what a cowardly little ****.

Not in the UK – age of consent is 16.

Doesn’t matter, you’re still a child. Look it up.

Our crazy laws. You are a minor till 18, but age of consent is 16. Though I genuinely don’t know how that circle gets squared.

Read the other day that it was only raised to 16 in the Victorian era, previously it was 12. Which is sickening.

Which is sickening.

Only to us now. Back then it wasn’t.

Edit. And if anyone thinks I agree with it be assured I think the likes of Jimmy Page and Boll Wyman should be hauled through the courts.
The only reason David Bowie and John Peel aren’t on the list is because of their deaths. Maybe the details of their lives should more emphasised.

Legally, a child is someone under 18. So the sentence you dismissed as “emotive” may literally be true.

It may be (does “child” even have a legalese definition? “Minor” maybe, or something to do with ages of consent). But however you slice it, calling him a nonce is misleading. You hear that someone is a kiddie fiddler, do you think “well, she was probably 17” or do you immediately conclude that they were hanging out outside primary schools armed with puppies and Haribo?

Doesn’t matter, you’re still a child. Look it up.

“Do your own research”? Come now. You look it up and then give us a link.

I looked it up on Google, Wikipedia and several online dictionaries including the OED and they all agreed with my biological definition. It could easily exist but as yet I haven’t found a definition in English Law.

Every day is a school day

Id like to see a sliding scale for cosent depending on age gap.  Some countries do that

I looked it up on Google, Wikipedia and several online dictionaries including the OED and they all agreed with my biological definition

I really don’t know why you’re pursuing matters of biology when we’re talking about legal proceedings. The law is clear.

You said

A middle-aged bloke boinking a 17-year old is far removed from being an abuser of children.

You are incorrect.

Edit, deleted as I don’t want to make flippant silly comments on a thread about sexual abuse

According to United Nations Convention on the Human Rights of the Child, a child is defined as anyone under the age of 18. The Department of Education define a child as anyone yet to have their 18th birthday.

And in  other news a rat is awarded a medal for finding mines.

One rat gains awards, another loses them.

dyna-ti
Free Member
And in other news a rat is awarded a medal for finding mines.

One rat gains awards, another loses them.

The rat actually passed away recently, was awarded the medal a few years back.

RIP Magawa :o(

A middle-aged bloke boinking a 17-year old is far removed from being an abuser of children.

You are incorrect.

How about an 18 year old guy (or a 25/30/35 yr old guy) and a 17 year old girl? Just curious where the LAW draws the line at  “middle aged”…

Id like to see a sliding scale for consent depending on age gap. Some countries do that

This has definite merit.

How about an 18 year old guy (or a 25/30/35 yr old guy) and a 17 year old girl? Just curious where the LAW draws the line at “middle aged”…

Depends on the context, doesn’t it. A 25 year old teacher having sex with a 17 year old student would be in serious trouble.

That’s why it’s wrong to say that Andrew is “far away” from being a child abuser. The child protection officer on this thread thinks so, anyway.

Rule of thumb, dont sleep with anyone younger than half your age plus 7. It kinda works, you are 18, dont sleep with a 16 year old, you are forty the minimum is 27, 60 is 37. Discuss.

And yet when my 19 year old friend got together with her 31 year old former teacher, that was absolutely fine – married for 30 years now.

Yes the law rightly has set “limits”, but the moral frothing around the subject is interesting.

Rule of thumb, dont sleep with anyone younger than half your age plus 7. It kinda works, you are 18, dont sleep with a 16 year old, you are forty the minimum is 27, 60 is 37. Discuss.

I’m 52, the chances of me finding a desperate 33 year old with low enough self esteem isn’t great.

Really tough one this. Would Andrew have known she was 17 and not 18. If they met in a club would not the natural instinct be that she is 18 and thus considered an adult?
Or if it was 3 months before her 18th, is she really considered a child on here?
When I was 40 my girlfriend was 27 when we met. When does age gap become appropriate?
So an 18 year old and a 30 year old, is that wrong? Is a girl over 18 allowed to choose a boyfriend of any age, but a few months earlier and her boyfriend could be considered a nonse?(based on the same man now being 29 yr okd and 17 year old girl)

Whilst I don’t think he’s a typical “nonse”, I’m confused at to what bracket he would be in.

Lots of historic pop stars seem to get a free pass. Elvis met Priscilla when she was 14, after his marriage ended he had a relationship with another 14 year old, very little is mentioned about Elvis but obviously a nonse yet we still refer to him as the King. Steven Tyler who got a 16 year old pregnant when he was 27….lots lots more including those previously mentioned….

Can you tell I’ve had a few beers? Absolutely not sticking up for Andrew, I think he was aware that she was a young exploited teenager. But I can see how he could say he had no idea. She was just a girl introduced to him in a club.

All the examples being given just now are those involving willing partners, exchange that for a vulnerable 17 year old and redo the examples.

Just noticed me and my ex just got into Stumpyjons calculation….phew I’m not a nonse!!!

Argee, would he have known she was vulnerable?
Yes I think he did know personally. But I can see how he can see he had no idea.

If he thought it was all above board why is he lying about ever even meeting her?

The 90’s for me were a drug and alcohol fuelled blur. Lots of sex happened. I could be shown a photo and quite honestly would not recognise some of the people I slept with.
He’s a lying turd, and I’m just
playing devils advocate.

. She was just a girl introduced to him in a club.

When I’ve met women in clubs they’ve been equals (ish), roughly in age, maturity, life experience, etc. If someone introduced a 17 year old to me when I’d been in my 30s I figure it would be quite noticeable that this was a bit off (IANAPrince)

It’s not the claim he slept with a 17 year old that’s got him into bother, he has been known as randy andy, airmiles andy, playboy prince, etc, etc his whole life, the press and country played up his whole lifestyle.

Sleeping with a 17 year old as a one off wouldn’t be great for his image, but it wouldn’t ruin him, it’s the entire story surrounding it that’s bringing him down, the constant links with Epstein, even after his earlier convictions, his relationship with Maxwell, now also convicted, that horrific interview which even had the interviewer looking embarrassed at his answers.

It’s been a perfect storm, and i dare say that it’s also a bit of revenge for some in terms of adding fuel, or giving it press, it’s all coming home to roost for him, but definitely not just him sleeping with a 17 year old, that wouldn’t have even made much press in this day and age!

Wasn’t he (allegedly) f++king her at 17 in New York where the age of consent is 18?

So that’s slam-drunk illegal, leaving aside “morality”/vulnerability/trafficking….

When I’ve met women in clubs they’ve been equals (ish), roughly in age, maturity, life experience, etc.

You obviously haven’t been to grab-a-grannie night at the Grafton club in Liverpool 😉

Im 60.  Me bonking a 37yr old would be well weird

Im 60. Me bonking a 37yr old would be well weird

Let’s just enjoy the new Shand for now….

MoreCash – is that Scottish slang? I don’t want to imagine TJ with a 37 year old never mind a hand shandy!

Yes I know it’s his new bike!

I don’t want to imagine TJ with a 37 year old

A whole day of STW waiting for him to go and meet her by train, demanding pics when he gets her home…..

As always, age isn’t the biggest issue, look at Leonardo DiCaprio, he started dating a 19 year old when he was 43 or so, it’s a running joke he’s never dated a woman over 25, but it’s not mentioned or offensive to anyone, because he is chased by women of all ages and is seen as a playboy, which Andy was as well back in the day.

For me it’s all the other circumstances that are the issue, if he’d slept with a 17 year old who was one of his horse riding mates daughters or sister it wouldn’t have caused a huge fuss, he’d have been out front of the castle looking sad and talking about letting everyone down, the press would have the stories of him being depressed or whatever, and a few months later he’d be back, but this isn’t that story.

I really don’t know why you’re pursuing matters of biology when we’re talking about legal proceedings. The law is clear.

Is it?

Which law are you referring to?

According to United Nations Convention on the Human Rights of the Child, a child is defined as anyone under the age of 18.

Cool, this is progress. Yes it does, I wasn’t aware of that. Thank you.

So under the “United Nations Convention on the Human Rights of the Child” what laws have been broken here? The closest I can find is (with no trace of irony) Article 34 which states that you shouldn’t act unlawfully. Which is kind of meta and shoves the responsibility straight back onto local laws.

Yes, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. Yes, I’m doing it to try and extract facts over knee-jerk noise, there are people here who surely know this stuff way better than I do and I’m trying to convince them to explain it to us rather than folk in the wings screaming “yes but nonce”. It’s easy to be outraged – I’m outraged with the privileged gormless sweatless arse – but it’s far more difficult to objectively define that. And (again) making shit up isn’t helpful.

You do wonder what would have brought the likes of Andrew, Epstein, Mandy and Maxwell together, maybe they shared specialist hobbies we haven’t yet heard about.

Money and alcohol?

Famous people being “associated” with other famous people is straight out of JHJ’s playbook. Have you got a photo of Andrew with Jimmy Savile?

Yes, of course it’s totally possible that they had a massive child-grooming ring going. But it’s surely a leap to assume that as fact. Maybe they all liked champagne and yachts. Maybe they thought they were untouchable and could get away with running a black market in trafficking teenage girls. Maybe they were all huge Origami nerds.

Maybe we should find out.

I’m guessing you haven’t read the thread Cougar. The allegations cover being forced to have sex after being trafficked to multiple territories, where different laws apply. The UK age of consent isn’t the key issue at all. BBC summarise here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58871849

Blimey, I was only asking. Didn’t mean to touch any raw nerves.

Bill, money is the golden thread.
maxwell and windsor wanted it, epstein had loads of it although how he got it is still unknown.
Everything else was secondary to their single-minded pursuit of money; they both clearly felt short-changed and wanted what, they felt, was their entitlement.
I posted hundreds of posts back…follow the money.

Is it?

Yes. You may think you’re playing Devil’s Advocate but you’re just coming across to me as a bit of a tool.

Think what’s being missed in some of the devils advocacy here is a basic understanding of power dynamics. Age of consent is only part of the social contract at work. Yes, there are people in successful, happy, co-responsive relationships with large age gaps. But particularly when those age gaps are present where one of the individuals is young teens/ early twenties there is a concurrent power imbalance.

The prince formally known as Andrew was clearly taking advantage of a significantly unbalanced “relationship” whether this was legal or not is immaterial as the young (at the time) person in question is clearly aggrieved.

@tjagain @coyote Scotland has something akin to your sliding scale – it’s a defence to statutory rape if you are <24 and had a genuine belief that the “victim” was 16 or over, as long as they are over 13 (from memory, details may be a little out).