Podium Girls – do they still have a place at races – what do you think ?

It’s very subtle though, fin25. Deny people the opportunities and many won’t necessarily even know what they are missing. The hard conversation you talk about maybe never happens since the person has picked up that the activity is not for them. Would a 10 year old girl watch MOTO GP or that podium in Belgium or similar and think ‘yup, that looks right up my street’? They might just go and do something else which is deemed ‘right’ for them.

Amedias, clearly I was writing in the context of the discussion, I do not need schooled on men/women being different. Deny opportunities then blame the inevitable results on fundamental natural preferences = garbage, for clarity.

Fin25 I think you’ve missed the point entirely. I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that either gender is more or less suited to any modern day roles. But to not recognise that there are definite biological differences between the sexes is to wildly oversimplify the issue.

Out of interest, do you have children? Only my views changed markedly after ha I got mine.

Edit; what Amedias said, again. He (she? 😉 ) must have a lot more time on his hands this morning than I…

A useful summary of the genetic argument and why it is wrong:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/15/girls-boys-think-same-way

The genetic/biological/’nature’ argument is less up for debate than should be believed, as life goals/strengths and weaknesess/traits are way, way more socially conditioned than they are by biological factors.

The genetic/biological/’nature’ argument is less up for debate than should be believed, as life goals/strengths and weaknesess/traits are way, way more socially conditioned than they are by biological factors.

I agree on that aspect, but I think the societal conditioning stems from much more basic physical differences that go back further in time than we realise.

At a biological level the genders have no difference mentally, but the societal conditioning started so many generations ago it manifests itself as though there is a difference.

We train the differences in as a society, but when and why did we first start doing that?

Shame we don’t have a reset button to start again properly 🙁

Can I move the debate on from the suggestion of kids instead of girlies, and suggest…. tigers.

They’re majestic creatures, and lets be honest…. trophy cermonies are incredibly tedius affairs, so the addition of a potenially hungry predator with huge claws and razor sharp tetth could greatly enliven proceedings

Or even better – stage some kind of circus – Neanderthals vs Tigers.

Comedy gold. Still cannot believe that the “I’m normal and like to look at the women but not if it as my daughter” comment was still a justifiable argument. I think I last heard that one late 70’s early 80’s. As earlier, great satire.

If sex sells stuff, the stuff aint worth it. I suspect thought marketing has developed somewhat in the last few years.

Enjoy the future everyone, it’s going to be really, really stupid.

Ok, I’ll withdraw the marketing has developed comment.

Where can I get that rather attractive chapstick?
It may sell better if the tube was carbon look a like.

@fin25, to some degree you seem to be attacking those of us discussing nature vs nurture as if we do not agree with you.

We do agree that we live in a fundamentally sexist society.

We’re trying to discuss how that happened, we all know it did, and we all know that it continues to do so, we also all agree that it needs to change, but part of driving that change requires us to understand how it happened in order to address that cause.

We did not simply one day as a species/society ‘decide’ to be sexist, it developed over time, and the why and how is important to drive the change.

If it is 100% society created then when do you think our society ‘became’ sexist and imbalanced?

Was there an imbalance at the very beginnings of society with small nomadic hunter/gatherer groups?

When and why did it ‘start’ so to speak?

The one thing this thread has done is provide me with more food for thought and a few more articles and topics to read up on, as ever my mind is open and intrigued…

If you’re trying to sell clothes, make up, or similar aesthetic related stuff then yes I can see the reason for having nice looking men/women modelling the merchandise. But WTF does a bike/car race or any other sporting event need models for? Prize giving or brolly holding 🙄 should be done by people involved/interested in the sport not by someone paid to stand there and look nice (male or female).

But to not recognise that there are definite biological differences between the sexes is to wildly oversimplify the issue

There may be statistical variations in the populations of male and female. But there are also statistical variations between people within each gender. The variations between individuals are so great as to drown out any tendencies based on gender. In other words, for every competitive man I’ll show you a competitive woman, for every sensitive woman I’ll show you a sensitive man*.

Do you not see how dangerous it is to use gender differences (IF they exist) for any kind of marketing or planning? It creates stereotypes, and stereotypes create prejudice. Statistically and historically, girls might play with princess dolls. So companies create girly marketing based on princess, and produce princess marketing. Now you come and explain to my tearful three year old why there are no superhero knickers in the shop in her size but tons of princess ones. What’s she going to take away from that? That some things are for girls only and some things for boys only.

We ordered some boys superhero ones from the website. Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, the Flash – no **** Wonderwoman 👿

I’ve got two girls, 3 and 6, even at this age we’re constantly having to explain to them that there’s no such thing as girly things or boy things. Why there are no women on telly playing football (until the WC was on), driving fast cars or playing rugby. Constantly having to fight against marketers telling them that the pricess crap is for them and the superheros that they love are for boys. Heartbreaking at times.

* gender stereotyping cuts both ways, incidentally. There are a fair few women out there who think that all men are philandering beer swilling football watching thoughtless scumbags. I’m frequently stereotyped, only difference is it doesn’t affect my career. Or self esteem, because these things are just laughed off. Boys will be boys, they say 🙄

As interesting as that article is, I’m unconvinced. It fails to address the differences in character that develop during and after puberty, driven by hormones.

It fails to address the differences in character that develop during and after puberty

We are not our hormones FFS! You’re stereotyping us all right now!

Testosterone might promote certain behaviour, but you can’t label all men beacuse they have it.

All that stuff aside – podiums are the public display of a sport, those are the pics that go in the papers and on the news websites, that is what the general public sees.

And on that theme – why are the mens podiums always last ? I used to do the women last when I had the power to decide – show that the women’s race is just as important, and some respect for the female athletes.

And I gave Jenny Copnall the number one plate at the national champs a few years ago, as defending female national champ. The commissaire spent ages trying to find a rule that said I couldn’t do that and came up with “it is tradition that the male champion gets the number one plate”. Well tough. Jenny seemed pretty happy.

I mentioned this to a friend (who has represented Britain at Olympic level) who came up with “but if you do the women’s podium last people might leave” which had never really occurred to me. And is sad.

Look at Tracy Moseley and her huge and sustained success internationally. Her race is less important ?

Anyways this thread has been very interesting – thanks !

“but if you do the women’s podium last people might leave”

I’m sure alpinestar would hang around to see that.
#Giggidy

We are not our hormones FFS! You’re stereotyping us all right now!

Lol, relax. Of course we are not defined by our hormones as individuals, but it is not contreversial to suggest that hormones have an influence on human behaviour.

Not that only thinking of these two hormones isn’t a gender-stereotype driven oversimplification, but an added fun complexity is that in functioning normally our bodies convert testosterone and oestrogen into each other 😀

There are a fair few women out there who think that all men are philandering beer swilling football watching thoughtless scumbags.

I resent the implication that as a man I watch football. Harrumph!

hels – Member

And on that theme – why are the mens podiums always last ? I used to do the women last when I had the power to decide – show that the women’s race is just as important, and some respect for the female athletes.

Friend of mine raced leogang wc the other day, I don’t usually pay much attention to anything but the podiums so I’d never noticed before just how hard it is to find the full womens’ results. Like, going on mtb news websites and clicking “full results” and getting hundreds of dudes and the top 5 women. FOR SOME REASON.

Behaviour at puberty has no bearing on the societal sexism applied from birth. Society also frames behaviour to meet its own sterotyping needs…

And don’t start me on Cove and their oo-er phnar phnar aren’t we naughty bike names. Cos the sport really needs more sexual references.

I stickered over my Hooker to say Librarian. The big bike brands do themselves no favours in the middle aged spinster market, and that’s a huge demographic.

The big bike brands do themselves no favours in the middle aged spinster market, and that’s a huge demographic.

*likes*

The big bike brands do themselves no favours in the middle aged spinster market, and that’s a huge demographic.

😆

I have been thinking for a while that it is time motorsport (and other sports) ditched this practice. When you see the F1 drivers going up to the podium flanked by lots of pretty women it just seems a bit wrong. They have a job to do in hospitality, displaying drvier names etc but why can’t that job also be performed by men? I don’t think it would go amiss to have a mixture of grid women and men.

At the weekend I saw a friend tagged in FB photo (he works for Monster Energy) which was an overhead shot of the Monster Compound at the Moto GP in Spain. It was of an enclosed area (high railings that look like bars) with the monster girls in but at the front middle was a pool in front of the fence with the girls in bikinis. There was a 10-12 row deep crowd of mainly men trying to get a look/photo and it just struck me as a bit sad that we still have this kind of thing.

but it is not contreversial to suggest that hormones have an influence on human behaviour.

No, it’s not. Women or men may (or may not) tend towards certain behaviour based on hormones.

However you cannot treat all women or men in a particular way based on that.

I don’t think he was suggesting that you should

I think the point that most people are trying to make is that using a completely hypothetical example:

– people who can roll their tongues (let’s call them ‘rollers’) are more likely to like the colour green
– people who cannot roll their tongues are more likely to like the colour red

Then a stereotype that rollers like green may have a basis in fact but if you’re a roller and aren’t allowed anything red or have your choice of red questioned repeatedly then that’s a negative stereotype. You would also expect that a number of rollers may well grow up thinking that they should like green and as a consequence choose it by default and don’t even consider giving red a go.

(odd examples but I was trying to think up non-controversial differences which wouldn’t trigger emotive responses. This of course is STW so…)

Good effort!

completely hypothetical example

Indeed – this would be criticised as completely ridiculous – people would be pulling it apart in the media, cos that’s what we do.

However gender stereotypes are so ingrained that you get people defending stupid shit like bikini clad women standing around cycling podiums as eye candy.

Interestingly (or not, depending on your PoV) our two closest relatives species-wise, the two chimpanzee species, arrange their societies along different gender lines. Common Chimps have a single Alpha Male, and Bonobos have a collective group of Alpha females.

It could be that our remment DNA (pre cognitive revolution 70k years ago) was arranged along Common chimp lines rather than bonobo. and perhaps our common ancestor species (Ororrin or Sahelanthropus, take your pick) did the same.

EDit: I don’t know whether they liked to have podium girls, or argued about it though…

It’s for fat red faced middle-aged women to worry about and attempt to get banned! under a pseudo feminist agenda. Makes them feel better! in a vein hope it lowers their partners/men in general expectations and distractions!

Quite frankly I couldn’t give a flying F&*k. You rarely hear men complaining when male models are used gratuitously, albeit it’s not as common. The majority of men aren’t as emotionally needy or constantly seeking approval, bar the odd one or two of course, Northwind on this forum for example 😀

This thread is a great example of how male attitudes have changed in the last few decades. Very positive and great to see,

The number of PC gone mad / Daily Mail readers is in single figures – maybe there have been lots of immigration issues or something going on over there keeping them busy?

Lots of lesbians complaining about dolly birds in bikinis at these things. I like looking at them, as do most other males except gays and liars. This would all stop overnight if there weren’t a huge amount of thick girls more than willing to take money for standing around doing nothing in their bikinis.

It must be very frustrating for feminists to know that their cause is undermined at every turn by their own sisters.

obvious troll is obvious

Dolly Birds? Initially, I’d assumed a lot of people on this thread had been beamed in from the early 70’s. The use of that phrase has moved my estimate back to 20 years earlier 😀

I’m really struggling with Poe’s Law on this thread

I love stuff like this.

As an experiment lets get the ‘we’re all the same brigade’ and pump them full of oestrogen and see how they think, feel, behave etc….then after a few months getting it out of the system lets do the same with testosterone and see how the thoughts, feelings and behaviour differ.

We’re not the same, not even close and to suggest hormones have no bearing is akin to denying puberty, biology etc….as inconvenient as it is for the PC brigade I like the difference between men and women, Jesus wept I wouldn’t want to partner up with a female like me or my male mates.

Vive la difference.

Out of interest, who do you think (on this thread) is in the ‘we’re all the same brigade’?