Anyone who doesn’t think that a young filly should be grateful of you showing your appreciation of her form by slapping her arse as she walks past?

As an experiment…

You miss the point. Those hormones do indeed change our behaviour. But that doesn’t mean we all end up behaving the same, or wanting and needing the same things.

Otherwise we wouldn’t be having an argument, would we? There are men on both sides for a start. We all have testosterone – how d’you explain that?

To make it clear – I’m not saying we’re all the same, I’m saying we’re all very different. But you cannot predict what we will and won’t like based on our gender.

Anyone who doesn’t think that a young filly should be grateful of you showing your appreciation of her form by slapping her arse as she walks past?

Everyone knows said fillys default response is to turn around using her upper body only, give a giggle and say “saucy”. Whilst continuing to walk away.

If she follows it up with a wink you know you are definitely in.

To make it clear – I’m not saying we’re all the same, I’m saying we’re all very different. But you cannot predict what we will and won’t like based on our gender.

Not on an individual basis, but on a population level, yes you can. Hence marketing, advertising, how things are sold. Most advertising execs, brand managers are not tasked with improving society as a whole, they’re tasked with selling more of the stuff. There’s a huge amount of research out there about what people respond to and how they respond to it (whether conditioned or innate, doesn’t matter so much at the point of sale) and that’s the basis on which we’re presented things like this.

There are plenty of examples of promotional efforts going it wrong, and I think this is one of them (although there might be someone somewhere saying “See!? I told you! If we make it bad enough, it’ll get retweeted all over the shop and loads of people will see our logos!”)

There are also plenty of examples of brands chosing to differentiate themselves through exemplary behaviour – eg patagonia. They’re there to be admired, and the more of them the better.

But it remains the case that there are a large percentage of the population is titillated by flesh, bad dresses, tawdriness, gossip etc. If you think that’s not the case maybe you explain 75% of the internet to me?

Not on an individual basis, but on a population level, yes you can.[/quote]

But can you say whether the population level difference is down to nature or nurture? As molgrips was responding to a suggestion to change everybody’s behaviour by pumping them full of hormones, the difference is fairly crucial. Can you predict with any great accuracy what somebody isolated from outside influences of society will like simply based on what hormones they have – even on a population level?

But it remains the case that there are a large percentage of the population is titillated by flesh, bad dresses, tawdriness, gossip etc. If you think that’s not the case maybe you explain 75% of the internet to me?

He’s right you know.
I often find myself of the appearance that I am taking a great interest in the weather forecast, then only to answer “no clue when asked after what the weather will be like tomorrow.

If they used more haggard women I might have a better idea of the forecast.

But can you say whether the population level difference is down to nature or nurture?

No, and neither can the advertising guys and girls. And I dare say a lot of them aren’t bothered. They’re selling to what’s there. How it came to be there isn’t so much of a concern.

There are some out there who are brave enough and ambitious enough and well enough positioned to try and influence the way society thinks for the better, but for most, “better” just means “wanting to buy more of our stuff”

As a society we should be concerned though. I don’t think a society shaped by what the marketing men think will sell more product is a particularly good thing.

Though that’s not really the point – as I said before molgrips post (which you replied to) was simply refuting the suggestion that on a population level the differences were down to hormones.

I don’t think a society shaped by what the marketing men think will sell more product is a particularly good thing.

Absolutely not, but that’s capitalism, that’s what we’ve got. Appealing to peoples basest instincts is quick, easy and successful, and the lowest common denominator seemingly keeps getting lower.

refuting the suggestion that on a population level the differences were down to hormones

Fair enough, there’s a lot more at play than just hormones. Like amedias said, it’s absolutely fascinating.

Not on an individual basis, but on a population level, yes you can. Hence marketing, advertising, how things are sold. Most advertising execs, brand managers are not tasked with improving society as a whole, they’re tasked with selling more of the stuff.

Absolutely, which is why attitudes need to change.

But it remains the case that there are a large percentage of the population is titillated by flesh

Yes, but a bike race is not the place for it!

Yes, but a bike race is not the place for it!

This^
Using young people with an interest in the sport as said earlier.
Like ball boys/girls at Wimbledon or football matches.

Could you imagine glamour models at Wimbledon.

Could you imagine glamour models at Wimbledon.

Perhaps not, but if you’re a female player and not particularly “good looking” you get blasted by John Inverdale for it.

Am I the only one thinking of sfb? 😉

Bike/bicycle racing/motor racing etc is male-dominated. What better place to give younger males an idea of the (supporting) female role in these sports (primarily eye-candy)? Way of the world innit? In addition – opportunity abounds for older male contenders/onlookers to congratulate themselves for not falling prey to PC madness and feel (vicariously or otherwise) more desirable when surrounded by young female models clad/unclad in ways that show off ‘assets’?

Sugary drink manufacturers win. It’s a win-win-win situation. Better still, reconstructed males/grumpy lesbians/Guardian-readers vs Sid James-faced, red-gilled, trouser-billiard champions/Clarkson fans get to stereotype each other AND feel all martyrish and superior. Another win!*

*Embittered sarcasm is all I can seem to manage lately. Apologies.

Bike/bicycle racing/motor racing etc is male-dominated. What better place to give younger males an idea of women’s supporting role in these sports? Additionally – opportunity abounds for the older male contenders/onlookers to congratulate themselves for not falling prey to PC madness and feel (vicariously or otherwise) more desirable when surrounded by young female models clad/unclad in ways that show off ‘assets’?

Sugary drink manufacturers win. It’s a win-win-win situation. Better still, reconstructed males/grumpy lesbians/Guardian-readers vs Sid James-faced, red-gilled, trouser-billiard champions/Clarkson fans get to stereotype each other AND feel all martyrish and superior. Another win!*

*Sarcasm is all I can seem to manage lately. Apologies.

I’ve tried to read that three times…

…nope.

Not a **** clue.

I actually wrote to Christian Prudhomme last year after the Tour regarding the podium girls.

My letter is in French (see below). I’m basically telling him that the girls are naf and of a bygone era of cycling and that it’s about time to turn the page on sexism in cycling.
I’m telling him that it’s embarassing for women and probably for the guys on the podium too and it does nothing for equality in cycling.
I’m proposing him to invite youth from local club to be on the podium, the message would be immensely more positive for everyone.

I never got a reply.

This year i’ll probably send my letter to Vélo Magasine or Le Cycle magasine which are popular in France because I think it’s about time people take a stand and feel a bit concerned by.

I live in France and i’m often on the podium for road races. Don’t start me on inequality (like the day the winner-man got a pair of wheels and the winner-woman got a decathlon watch)

here’s the letter for the francophones :

Monsieur PRUDHOMME,

Tout d’abord, je tiens à vous féliciter, vous et votre équipe, pour ce Tour qui a été le plus intéressant et émouvant depuis bien longtemps. Pour nous les fans de vélo, ça a été l’occasion de voir du grand vélo.

Mais j’en viens à l’objet de mon courrier. Sur la photo de podium de Vincenzo NIBALI et en fait, sur toutes les photos de podium, je suis un peu choquée de voir encore les potiches dont la présence ne fait rien ni pour le vélo ni pour les femmes.

Elles représentent un cyclisme du siècle dernier, machiste et plus d’actualité. Franchement, il est temps de se débarrasser des podium girls. Elles ne valorisent personnes. Ni les champions qui pour la plupart sont sûrement un peu embarrassés par leur présence, ni les femmes qui devraient (et sont quand même, heureusement) être encouragées pour être des sportives et compétitrices de plein droit et non pas des faire-valoir d’un autre temps.

Je vous propose à la place d’inviter des jeunes (garçons et filles) des clubs cyclistes des villes étapes à tenir le rôle. Ça enverrait un message beaucoup plus positif et d’actualité sur un cyclisme moderne porté sur la performance et la beauté du sport et surtout porté sur l’avenir.

Tout le monde le dit, cette année a été exceptionnelle. Prenez l’occasion pour tourner la page sur les podium girls qui sont un peu ringardes.

Merci d’avoir lu.
Cordialement et merci de nous donner notre fête nationale de 3 semaines tous les étés!

Une fan et coursière

ive just realised I actually posed with a podium girl once!

it was quite PC though, you had a choice of throne companion and the bloke was more scantily clad than the woman

its still naff at bike races though

Could you imagine glamour models at Wimbledon.

Despite not winning any decent tournaments, wasn’t Anna Kournikova bascially the best paid tennis star in the world at one point, mainly because of her looks?

Depsite not winning any decent tournaments, wasn’t Anna Kournikova bascially the best paid tennis star in the world at one point, mainly because of her looks?

I believe so, as is Maria Sharapova now due to endorsements based on her looks. Despite not being in the same league as Serena Williams when it comes to winning grand slams, tournaments and prize money, she earns more.

Sorry i missed this thread.

A couple of things sprung to mind while reading.

Maybe if the cycling podium females (don’t know what to call them now) were pumped full of drugs then there’d be a bit more context?

Surely the competitors on the podium are also being objectified?

I like the idea of having youngsters on the podium instead of grown ups, but you run the risk of attracting paedos. 😆

I just like the hypocrisy of the thread when the most read news item, on the front page, is the one with pictures of sports bras 🙄

Actually the news story on SRAM DD3 Pulse-autoelectric shifting has over twice as many views, making it the most read by a long way. And in fact the Fresh Goods article (with bras) is pretty comparable in views to previous Fresh Goods articles. So, no, not hypocritical really.

Pictures of sports bras? Hang on back in a mo…

Actually I don’t see how it would be hypocritical even if your claim about it being most read (and that being because of the bras) hadn’t been debunked. We know and acknowledge that lots of blokes like to look at scantily clad women, but those complaining about women being objectified probably aren’t the ones leering (if anybody is – are sports bras particularly sexy? aren’t there much more exciting pics easily available on the web?)

aren’t there much more exciting pics easily available on the web?

Aye, but no one can access them from work 😉