Pidcock/Ineos Rift – what’s up?

I’ve learnt something – I had no idea there was such a thing as a World Team and that it was a closed shop.  Sounds about right when compared to the future development of MTB World Cups . . .

Maybe he should go freelance!

Interesting article in today’s Guardian

I didn’t realise US participation in Pro road cycling had fallen so low

Ha just came here to post that @winston

as no other male rider is mixing 3 disciplines at a World class level. And as for trying to compare Pogacar’s CX National title in Slovenia ( that hotbed of CX..) as demonstrating his technical skills…….blimey, I’d expect better on a MTB forum.

The Slovenia cx remark was in response to some gibberish that pogacar will “never come close” to Pidcock on bike handling. Whilst Slovenia may not  be the pinnacle of cx racing you’re not going to be National champion if you can’t handle a bike to a reasonable degree . We could also add in winning Strada Bianchi and being fairly rapid down alpine gt descents, hanging around at sharp end of tour stages and racing classics as indicating he’s probably fairly close to Pidcock in handling a bike

Obvs though I forgot to allow that only our plucky little TP can truly handle a bike in the pro peleton.

Obvs though I forgot to allow that only our plucky little TP can truly handle a bike in the pro peleton.

Indeed, some of the comments on here are awfully close to the “he used to race mountain bikes so he’s an excellent bike handler” nonsense that Liggett and Sherwen used to trot out when they were commentating on the Tour.

Obvs though I forgot to allow that only our plucky little TP can truly handle a bike in the pro peleton

Has to be said that – by and large – the standard of bike handling within the general WT peloton is a lot better than it used to be. The current “mode of racing” of full gas from start to finish, jostling for position, surfing wheels etc demands much more than the old skool style of racing where you could get away with sitting in the bunch for hours.

Certainly the traditional thought that roadies aren’t good technically is very out of date. Some are better than others of course but the overall standard has improved greatly.

A lot of them make out he’s been beating amateur/ semi-pros – forgetting it took MvdP a few seasons to finally crack it, and even since then he’s had two high profile crashes. Pidcock turned up and was competitive straight away – he’s made for XC MTB racing.

Pidcock had the advantage of having UCI points from 2 years at U23 so got gridded in far better positions when he moved up to Elite. MVDP just jumped in at the back of the grid in the first year. At Albstadt in 2016 he was gridded 90odd or something and finished 34th. Mid race he was lapping at the same speed as the leaders while passing 10 to 15 riders a lap. The next year the commentators had learned this “unkowns” name and were bigging him up as he was getting podiums. Couldn’t quite believe at the time Bart Brentjens the Dutchman didn’t appear to know who he was.

Good news for MTB? Seeing the revised world cup rules for next year, if I’m reading it right, whatever team TP is on he gets an automatic entry from now til 2028 as he is Olympic champion.

I think half the problem is that Ineos are a team dearly wishing to compete and win GC every time still…

But they have somehow ended up with a team where the best winning riders, are all specialists, and not in GC.

So Ganna and Tarling are TT Specialists who have lost Dan Bigham as he seemed to fall out with them

Pidcock is a great road rider, but is a far better XC/ cross rider and seems to dabble in road.

I think Pidcock has two choices, either leave off road and really concentrate on GC in the hope he might be able to compete in a few years time against the best, being one of the youngest

Or, go to a team where the classics are a big thing, and concentrate on those he’d do well at and keep his hand in MTB/ cross.

You can’t do both, that’s why MVDP won’t ever be a GC rider, and WVA has concentrated more and more on the road, and competed far less off road, as he now has a different engine

I think the fact that Pogacar crashes as rarely as he does compared to his GC competitors says a lot about his skill level on a bike and his ability not to lose concentration riding in the peleton.

I think the fact that Pogacar crashes as rarely as he does compared to his GC competitors says a lot about his skill level on a bike and his ability not to lose concentration riding in the peleton.

Great point, but then he is usually out in front with nobody to crash into 😉

Another thing I’ve just thought of, Pidcock’s two biggest victories in terms of exposure (IE his two Olympic titles) have not come in a trade team jersey but a GB jersey, so no exposure for INEOS…

I’ll bet a lot more people were watching him descending the Galibier at the TdF than were watching olympic XC. And I bet that clip on the LH bend on the descent has been watched many more times than the one when he sneaked past Koretzky in Paris

I’ll bet a lot more people were watching him descending the Galibier at the TdF than were watching olympic XC. And I bet that clip on the LH bend on the descent

That picture is perfect for illustrating where your body weight should be on a bike (road, MTB or otherwise) when you’re on the limit, regardless of the BC coaching advice.

You can’t do both, that’s why MVDP won’t ever be a GC rider

No MvDP won’t ever be a gc rider because he is too big, has nothing to do with doing CX in winter. MVDP also doesn’t appear to give two shits about le tour, which I find very heartening. It’s why he has a much better palmares than Wout who took the Jumbo coin and dances to the teams music. MVDP has stuck in smaller teams and done what he wants/is best suited to.

Pidcock like I said earlier lacks the power to go up against Wout and MVDP and the Watts/kg to go against Pog and Vingagoagoago. He’s never going to be as prolific but he can still get some big wins as he has shown. He could bag a monument one day.

MVDP also doesn’t appear to give two shits about le tour, which I find very heartening.

That’s not completely true though is it. He works his butt off for Jasper Philipsen as a super deluxe lead-out man. Sure, he realistically knows that he’s never going to be a GC contender, but he rides for his team mates regardless and in the rainbow bands too.

MVDP has stuck in smaller teams and done what he wants/is best suited to

This is why I think he’ll go to Q36.5. Alpecin–Deceuninck have grown as a team over the past few years, I can see the same with Q36.5 and Pidcock.

An extremely talented and ambitious rider in a team that is not the dominant force that it once was, and has (by its own admission) some issues with its current management? This is not the greatest mystery in the world.

True but Pog is a properly good descender on the road I doubt he’s slower than Pidcock.

Yeah sure hes a stronger descender than JV or RE but you could watch Milan San Remo finish from this year as a head to head comparison?

There are also many better elbows-out and tactical w2w racers than him which is different to taking a decent quick when you’re out in the lead with a clear road ahead.

Pog is a power guy. He wins so much because he can ride off up a long hill or he can drop a sudden load of power in an uphill sprint. As I understand it from all the ‘not on drugs’ analysis thats down to an inherant physical advantage when it comes to recovery and metabolism? Not something i would categorise as ‘talent’

He works his butt off for Jasper Philipsen as a super deluxe lead-out man

Which for a man of his talent is pretty easy. He uses the tour as training!

Yeah sure hes a stronger descender than JV or RE but you could watch Milan San Remo finish from this year as a head to head comparison?

As I recall this year Pog got to the top of Poggio with MVDP on his wheel and Pidcock about 5m behind. They all took it easy and the group swelled to about 10 riders. Not sure it showed anything about Pogs descending compared to Pidcock.

Not something i would categorise as ‘talent’

You would be wrong.

https://dnlbenson.substack.com/p/exclusive-tom-pidcocks-exit-deal

There’s a lengthy (30min) but very good GCN video on Ineos in general (inc a segment on Pidcock / Ineos) here:

Well-researched and presented, also surprisingly positive in many ways.

Neither the team, nor Dan or the writers of the script for that video, mention the fact that they have never made any commitment to women’s racing. Myopic chauvinism that makes me think the riders who jump ship are doing the right thing

Still can’t believe Ineos are running Lightweight wheels, that shape was out of date 10 years ago. Yes, they look great and weigh nothing, but that is dated kit.

they have never made any commitment to women’s racing. Myopic chauvinism that makes me think the riders who jump ship are doing the right thing

For those better aquainted with road racing, and the currently smaller talent pool of womens road racing – how feasible would it have been for them to have built a road team around PFP in a single off-season? Even with an open chequebook, riders on multi season contracts and a lack of preparation time would seem like they would be starting unrecoverably on the back foot.

To find themselves in this situation is proof they never tried before when other teams have though, so I agree with the underlying point.

built a road team around PFP in a single off-season?

Start by looking at how long PFP has been at Ineos. They had more than one season to build a team, but didn’t

Still can’t believe Ineos are running Lightweight wheels, that shape was out of date 10 years ago. Yes, they look great and weigh nothing, but that is dated kit.

Plenty of teams run suboptimal kit they don’t like (like SRAMdrivetrains).

Plenty of teams run suboptimal kit they don’t like (like SRAM drivetrains)

Yeah, but Ineos chose Lightweights, Shimano were there wheel sponsor previously.

Ah right, I didn’t know that. Guess it goes with the Pinarello image.

they have never made any commitment to women’s racing

No marginal gain in it for them, eh?

TBH I feel they probably would have done it by now if they were still Sky, but Ratcliffe seems to have moved on to other shiny baubles.

Still can’t believe Ineos are running Lightweight wheels, that shape was out of date 10 years ago. Yes, they look great and weigh nothing, but that is dated kit.

Image more than anything on those I think. Also, Lightweight certainly used to have a policy of never sponsoring teams or riders, everyone was expected to pay for them. They quite famously told Lance Armstrong to sod off when he asked for them, he/the team had to buy them. So maybe Ineos are in the same situation, they’ve bought a whole load of incredibly expensive blingy wheels and feel they need to keep using them?

They were also one of the very last teams to commit to disc brakes. The difference in performance was incredible, you could see their riders – on rim brakes – dropping back through the peloton on descents as everyone else – on disc brakes – could go faster into corners and brake later. Pretty much the whole peloton was on them for months before Ineos finally and quite reluctantly started using them.