Pidcock/Ineos Rift – what’s up?

I’ve just spotted this on PB and it appears there’s a bit of a rift at Ineos – anyone know any details?

I’d love to see him on a different team as I hate Ineos (the company and owner) and all they stand for and find it hard to get excited when TP is riding for them.  Be nice to see him on a proper mountainbike for a change.

On the Netflix documentary it mentioned something about him not really fulfilling his potential as a GC rider?

 it appears there’s a bit of a rift at Ineos – anyone know any details?

Nah, but their management seem to have lost the plot and he seems hugely talented but a bit prickly, so sparks were bound to fly.

He’s always gonna be more of a one-day, classics and possibly week-long stage race rider though eh?

Maybe he wants to do more than just road race so his focus isn’t just on that and ineos maybe want him as their road leader…
Apparently he can be a bit annoying (I suspect you would have to be to get that good and stay that good), but perhaps both sides are rubbing the other up the wrong way and things aren’t working out quite so well just now…

Don’t think anyone knows details other than he must be leaving, as deselecting him like that (for Lombardia) is scorched earth policy (plus clear discontent all season).

r/peloton speculation was that Ineos didn’t want to pay a performance bonus to a departing rider, and he had a decent chance of a podium at the weekend. But take that for what it is worth.

Not sure we’ll see too much of him on a proper mountain bike – he sounded like he was prepared to up his focus on the road last he spoke, because it is so difficult to win there.

The bits I’ve read suggest that there’s friction between him and Stannard which is part of it.

From various reports the past couple of years he seems to be anything but a team player and is only interested in his own results.

He’s a great CX and MTB racer and has some talent in one day races but I can’t ever see him being a GC rider no matter which team he’s riding with. It’ll probably be best for both parties if him and INEOS part ways.

My speculation…….

Ineos want a GC contender. TP is not going to fulfil that position with the opposition that he has plus the fact that he wants to focus on other key races (inc MTB).

More speculation. He probably earns an awful lot of money, probably the highest earner in Ineos.  I would summise that Ineos would prefer to spend the wage on a genuine GC contender.

I really like how TP races, but in my view he would be better suited on a French or Belgium team. I don’t think he should focus solely on road.

And my speculation from TP’s perspective, while Ineos have allowed him to race all sorts of different formats, they don’t really come across as being fully supportive of one day races. Possibly also don’t have the overall firepower to support GC rider either.

He’s heading onto Bora Hansgrohe SSSSSSHHHHHHH

  Be nice to see him on a proper mountainbike for a change.

If he goes anywhere else I reckon he’ll not race a mountain bike again.  He’s already said it’s too hard to do a full cross/mtb/road program.  The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.

The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.

Maybe he’s put away a few quid to allow him to be what he says he really is  – a mountain biker who does a bit of road riding.

He’s always gonna be more of a one-day, classics and possibly week-long stage race rider though eh?

I agree.

As for Ineos they definitely seem to have lost the plot. I suspect that Jim, having got into football and yachting, has fallen out of love with cycling.

The road is where the big bucks and superstardom is.

That’s true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he’s going to be an also-ran, surely?

He’s being paid a lot of money to race on the road for someone who’s won five races in his Pro Tour career. If you look at him dispassionately, he’s not really developed as a rider since he joined the team, which is fine, but I suspect his contract was based on his potential, which he isn’t fulfilling – he’s not remotely on a par with WvA or MvP who are the obvious comparisons.

On top of that, he seems totally focussed on himself, has his own, silohed support team, isn’t a team player. He rode a mtb world cup round the weekend before the Tour. Came out and said that only he would decide his role there etc. He’s clearly very talented, but he’s being paid – anecdotally – a top tour leader’s salary to race mountain bikes. Arguably that’s INEOS’ fault for agreeing to pay him over the odds in the first place and maybe his obvious selfishness is fuelled partly by the idea that he’s ‘worth it’, but there you go.

But basically, he’s being overpaid on the basis of being quite good and British, but for the money he’s on, he should be van Aert or VdP, he’s not and INEOS, which is basically a Grand Tour team would be better off spending the money they pay him on someone who’ll boost their GC chances. On top of that, who knows what’s gone on behind the scenes. People are people and fall out over stupid stuff etc.

If he can find someone else prepared to pay him GC leader money to basically thrash a lot of low-paid mountain bikers whenever he gets bored then good luck to him. Over-rated, mostly by himself.

 can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard?

His peers are more MVDP, Van Aert, Remco and the other classics contenders, no?

Though I’m slightly rusty on the current peloton.

Ineos aren’t going to win a grand tour for a few years but they can’t get their heads around doing anything else

and

Pidcock is not an easy character

I can’t see him beating Pogacar or Vingegaard in a 3 week race, or beating Evenpoel in a week race or even Pog and Evenpoel in most classics. And then there are two other very very good one day racers who I wouldn’t see him beating in most classic/monuments.

Its always a strange conundrum, TP is an awesome bike racer, just not quite up there with the very best on the road. Its small margins, but there is a small gap between him and the very best.

That’s true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he’s going to be an also-ran, surely?

He’s very opportunistic though, that is a definite point in his favour plus he’s got the beginnings / hints of a really solid palmares potential.
I guess the issue is whether Ineos (or any team) wants an opportunistic stage hunter riding for himself rather than a team player who’ll go with a defined plan (even if that plan doesn’t come to fruition).

Some of the smaller teams, the ones that come to the Tour with no expectation of anything other than a bit of breakaway time and a potential lucky stage win might be ideal for him. Less pressure, a chance to race as a bit of a lone wolf.

Again, just speculating. Commentators were saying during the Grand Tours that maybe the days of the breakaway were over because they routinely got chased down (by accident or design) and then Pogacar went off and won. Again.

If he goes anywhere else I reckon he’ll not race a mountain bike again.

Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That’s kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that’s where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don’t know by the way, it’s kind of a rhetorical question.

And well said BadlyWiredDog, agree with what you have said.

BadlyWiredDog

Over-rated, mostly by himself.

Multiple World Championships across various disciplines say he’s definitely not over rated.  The sheer ability to rock up at any MTB race he choses and wipe the floor with everyone should demonstrate that.

I don’t get and don’t follow road at all but it does appear that Ineos have not managed to figure out how to get him to be a GC rider.  Maybe being small requires a different setup?

Road racing is a team sport. In MTB team mates can have a much more luke warm relationship. TP strikes me as better in that environment. Or triathlon.

That’s true enough but realistically can he better the likes of Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic and Vingegaard? Unless he can manage that he’s going to be an also-ran, surely?

He doesn’t even stand a chance of beating them unless he focuses 100% on being a grand tour gc rider.

Or triathlon.

That’s a bit low 🙂

Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That’s kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that’s where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don’t know by the way, it’s kind of a rhetorical question.

Maybe the ideal set-up is a big bike brand sponsor like Spesh or Trek who see the value in him winning XC on their bike, and also sponsor a World Tour team that he can do the Classics and stage hunting you mention for.

If the above rumour about Bora Hansgrohe is correct, they are on Spesh – so they could be contributing more than usual towards his salary with the XC in mind.

Current Olympic (double Olympic!) and former World and European MTB Champion though. That’s kind of a big deal. Do you just walk away from that to concentrate on road? Or pick and choose a bit? Maybe that’s where the rift is? Is he being pushed to choose one or the other? I don’t know by the way, it’s kind of a rhetorical question.

That’s a bit like saying “He’s won the Rugby Superleague cup, so why doesn’t he just go play football for Manchester United”.  Almost completely different sports and one is much bigger and more lucrative than the other.  Most decent MTB talent ends up racing on the road because you can make more money as a mediocre continental tour team domestique than winning MTB races.  Hence when someone does do both (Pidcock, Peter Sagan, Lachlan Morton) they tend to be absolutely dominant off-road in the few races they do turn up to because they’re in a different league.

I don’t get and don’t follow road at all but it does appear that Ineos have not managed to figure out how to get him to be a GC rider.  Maybe being small requires a different setup?

GC requires insane W/Kg (Pidcock – check) AND the ability to repeat it day in day out in the high mountains – you can’t even have a bad 15 minutes. Pidcock hasn’t really shown the second thing at all. It also requires a good TT which he hasn’t ridden with any seriousness in recent years. A team who don’t think you’re a complete **** also helps.

It’s possible he could massively improve GC, with complete road focus, but Vin and Pog are similar in age and Pog in particular is the literal GoaT. So the incentives are not completely clear for Pidcock as far as GC goes – he’d be trying to win the Vuelta, or the TdF if both Vin and Pog were ill. He is likely to have far more success in one day races where he has proven he can win, if he concentrates fully on the road.

Q36.5 have also been mentioned. I think that would mean he stays on pinarello bikes as well.
Managing talented athletes is always challenging and it looks like Ineos and Pidcock have decided to move on. Not sure why he couldn’t just do what he does already, maybe he’s burnt his bridges.

Most decent MTB talent ends up racing on the road because you can make more money as a mediocre continental tour team domestique than winning MTB races.  Hence when someone does do both (Pidcock, Peter Sagan, Lachlan Morton) they tend to be absolutely dominant off-road in the few races they do turn up to because they’re in a different league.

Yep, and it was the same with MvdP in CX last year, he won almost every race.

I mean, I know they’re different, I was just kind of wondering aloud / on screen about how much he *wants* to pick and choose vs how much he’s being *allowed* to pick and choose.

It’s always seen as fairly high risk, letting your star roadies go off and do MTBing cos of the greater chance they’ll break themselves…

Multiple World Championships across various disciplines say he’s definitely not over rated.  The sheer ability to rock up at any MTB race he choses and wipe the floor with everyone should demonstrate that.

I meant he’s over-rated on the road. The. guys racing elite level mountain bike aren’t paid anything like the amount he makes, but the reason he’s paid that money is that he is – or was – seen as someone with the potential too rival the likes or WvA or MvdP on the road. I’m not saying he’s not a very talented rider, he clearly is, but the fact that he’s won five elite level races tells you that he’s not  on the same level as, say van Aert, who has over 30 wins including 9 Tour de France stage victories.

He’s being paid as if he can rock up at any road races he chooses and ‘wipe the floor with everyone’, but right now he’s either not good enough to do that, chooses not to – unlikely – or is maybe not focussed enough on his road career to maximise his obvious ability. He can both be very good at riding bikes, but also not a good fit for the team he’s riding for, if he’s not prepared to apply his talent in a way they want.

Sure, he wants to race loads of different stuff and enjoy it, but part of being paid well is accepting that you also have obligations as a result. Hopefully he’ll find a team who’ll pay him the big bucks and allow him to race across different disciplines and be happy doing it. Nothing against Tom Pidcock at all, he’s a cracking rider, but if you’re asking why INEOS seems to want rid, then it’s probably something along those lines. They’re not a mountain bike team basically.

He’s a very strong one-day rider on a poor team focused on GC to his cost. He’d have done better somewhere where he’d have a team working to get him into the right breaks on grand tour stages and tearing up classics on his behalf. Ineos is a bin fire at the moment and that’s not Pidcock’s fault.

He came second to Pogacar about 2 weeks back, so he can’t be that bad a roadie at the moment!?

Maybe the ideal set-up is a big bike brand sponsor like Spesh or Trek who see the value in him winning XC on their bike, and also sponsor a World Tour team that he can do the Classics and stage hunting you mention for.

You mean like MvdP and Canyon. It was a major part of his early road contracts. Not sure how connected it is now he’s fully established as someone who can pretty much guarantee a result whenever he pins a number on.

Doesn’t he already have that bike brand relationship with Pinarello as he is personally sponsored by them hence the link to the team Q36.5 whos owner recently purchased Pinarello (Ivan Glasenberg)?

Doesn’t he already have that bike brand relationship with Pinarello

Maybe, but Pinarello can’t really expect to leverage his XC success into bike sales and revenue in the same way that Spesh could.

You mean like MvdP and Canyon

Probably yeah, he’s a great asset for a company that’s really strong in road and MTB bikes.

I wonder if PFP’s departure from Ineos to VLaB is indicative of Ineos not working at the moment, or just coincidence. Perhaps ineos are dropping the MTB piece of the picture so neither TP or PVP fit anymore?

It’s a shame that Ineos haven’t been able to make something happen for perhaps the most exciting UK bike racer of the moment. Not sure that they’ve ever really had a plan for him. Is that TP wanting to ride XC as well as road. Or is it Ineos have lost their way? (they don’t seem to be getting the most out of Hayter and Tarling either). But back in Sky plumage, they couldn’t make it work for Cav either, and he did much better elsewhere.

I would think Q36.5 is a bad move w no grand tours on their calendar this next year, and RBBHG more likely to have something going for him.

And Q36.5 currently use Scott bikes.

Isn’t he already an RB athlete?

I’m not sure that 2 Olympics over 3 summers has done his road career any favours as he’s not been fully focussed on the road meaning he’s tended to do fewer race days than your average rider, and then a chunk of those are preparation races. I reckon with more dedication to the road discipline, which Pidcock himself has said he needs, and a bit more experience at the pointy end of races he has definite scope for improvement.

That being said, I can’t really see him as a GC rider. The idea of trying to turn him into a grand tour rider when he’s never even got top ten in a world tour stage race seems daft given his one-day results.

He’s said in an interview last month that he’s unlikely to ride a mountain bike next year-

Tom Pidcock says “issues” within Ineos Grenadiers undermining his racing

I can only imagine he’s off to another team.

That being said, I can’t really see him as a GC rider. The idea of trying to turn him into a grand tour rider when he’s never even got top ten in a world tour stage race seems daft given his one-day results.

Sky / Ineos turned Bradley Wiggins and Geraint Thomas from track-focused riders to Grand Tour winners. There’s plenty of cases of riders mixing things up and/or changing their focus; equally plenty of cases where riders focus on one thing. Chris Hoy for example was never going to be a roadie or a MTBer, he’s a true track sprint specialist but Mark Cavendish very successfully mixed track and road.

MvdP and WvA mix road and CX, Sagan mixed road and MTB, Lachlan Morton did (for a while) mix road and gravel before going off to do his own adventure racing stuff (which EF seem to be fully supporting and indeed monetising!)

It’s certainly do-able, I just think it requires huge amounts of commitment and buy-in from everyone concerned. And if one half of the partnership isn’t buying into that, there’s going to be friction.

PFP wants to ride road, Ineos don’t have a women’s road team. I think she’s retired from MTB.

EDIT – yes, that was always her plan. https://www.bicycling.com/news/a60960617/pauline-ferrand-prevot-to-retire-from-mountain-biking-to-focus-on-road/

Ineos are clearly in trouble. Losing riders left, right and centre and there is something going on in the management. Dan Bigham left quite publicly. Cummings didn’t go as DS to the tour.