Papal visit of Pope on Thursday, anyone going………….to protest

The pope rides a Berlingo?

I spent a few hours in that strippers on my stag doo…. A particularly lovely show involving two Eastern Exoctic ladies, his popeness would be proud.

Fueled – Member

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should burn in hell.

I read the above as

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should bum in hell 🙂

Was there any need for that, Clubber?

has this been done yet?

yes it has —removed

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should burn in hell.

with the obvious exception of the gay cardinal he is here to beatify.

and with regard to infallibility? This is only when it is invoked, as it has been only once, ever. And that was about the assumption of Mary, which was already a strong belief in the church, in fact it was a rare occurrence of the church acting in accordance with the wishes of its people, rather than the converse.

People, please this stuff is easily knowable.

with the obvious exception of the gay cardinal he is here to beatify.

Except the Vatican got quite cross with the claims that he was gay?

sort of, but that is more for show. If they really had any qualms about it they wouldn't do it would they?

People, please this stuff is easily knowable

if you use a phrase like that you should check the facts in your post.

CharlieMungus – Member

"I think thats enough to prove my point don't you?"

Not really,

What? Did you actually read the quotes? Referring to Africa as well and you think millions of cases of AIDS in latin america is not important?

Get real. You are so blind to the truth here.

No one with any sense can doubt that catholic teachings on condoms has been responsible for millions of deaths. UN experts on Aids / HIV have publicly stated this.

CharlieMungus – Member

I see your point, are you then suggesting that the pope/CC has influence on the governments of predominantly non catholic countries in Sub-saharan Africa?

Yes they do – see the quotes from various African catholic bishops

Why are we not seeing epidemics in South America?

We are – millions infected and the rate of infection rising rapidly

1) I see the quotes from individual bishops, I also see lots of bishops who didn't say these things. I didn't see any evidence of lots of people accepting what these (isolated) individual say

2) The rates in South America are small comapared to the epidemics some African countries.
In fact the overall rate for South America, is less than the rate for switzerland
http://www.avert.org/

Time for you to show some data TJ.

What? Did you actually read the quotes?

did you actually read the data?

Charlie – clearly nothing will convince you.

millions infected in south america doesn't count because its smaller than the african epidemics?

Quotes from people involved in healthcare in africa stating that catholic pressure has made it harder to provide condoms don't count?

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

get real.

I have provided lots of data and lots of quotes and you simply turn a blind eye. You continue to attempt to defend the indefensible.

Charlie – clearly nothing will convince you.

Data will

millions infected in south america doesn't count because its smaller than the african epidemics?

No, because as a percentage of population, it is quite small. Less than switzerland

Quotes from people involved in healthcare in africa stating that catholic pressure has made it harder to provide condoms don't count

They do, but this is qualitative anecdotal evidence. It shows that it happens, but does not give any indication of how widespread it is

Tue Oct 23, 2007
TEGUCIGALPA (Reuters) – The rapid spread in Latin America of the virus that causes AIDS is made worse by the Roman Catholic Church's stand against using condoms, a U.N. official said on Monday.
Some 1.7 million people across Latin America are infected with the HIV virus or full-blown AIDS, and the epidemic is spreading swiftly with up to 410,000 new cases in 2006, up from as many as 320,000 new cases in 2004, according the UN AIDS program, UNAIDS.

400 000+ new case in a year? And that is 6 years ago – epidemics rise exponetially. Not an epidemic?

epidemics rise exponetially. Not an epidemic?

circular argument.
Where is the exponential rise?
Exponential rise is not necessarily a characteristic of an epidemic.
AIDS is made worse by the Roman Catholic Church's stand against using condoms, a U.N. official said on Monday

Again, single point data, and i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor, but not the main cause.

*bangs head on wall*

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor

On which basis, we can safely say that the Catholic Church is A Bad Thing, the magnitude of its Badness can be debated but clearly not the fact that it is…

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

On that I agree! why do you refuse to engage with the evidence. I have done you that courtesy with your evidence

If it is so easy, show me the exponential growth

i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor
On which basis, we can safely say that the Catholic Church is A Bad Thing, the magnitude of its Badness can be debated but clearly not the fact that it is

Too simplistic. Bicycles are a factor in road deaths, does that make them a bad thing?

Popemobile looks like a mobile toilet.

Given his age, it probably is – the seat certainly looks like a commode…

They're not a factor because they don't cause it.

If the church tells someone not to use condoms and they don't when they otherwise would have then they're at least part of the cause and therefore a bad thing.

Are you really saying that a bicycle has never caused a road death?

we've started using 'don't do that or the pope will bum you…' as a disiplinary threat to our 1 year old..

Not as a result of actions it has chosen to take… (though I do swear sometimes that my bikes decide to puncture just to spite me…)

320,000 new cases in 2004 (TJ)
410,000 new cases in 2006 (TJ)
170,000 new cases in 2008 (avert.com)

Are you really calling that exponential growth?

clubber, this is pointless, let's say cyclists then. Cyclist are a contributory factor in road deaths so they are a Bad Thing. Magnitude to be ascertained

Yep, cyclists who make choices that cause crashes deliberately are a bad thing.

The CC knows that banning condoms will cause deaths. It is completely in their power (if not their egos) to avoid doing this.

No need to disaggregate the cyclists here clubber, you didn't with the CC.

CC contributes to death therefore is a bad thing
cyclists contribute to death therefore are bad thing

Couldn't watch the news today without wanting to blow chunks. Daily Mash to the rescue…

Queen To Have Lunch With Insane Criminal

deliberate policy of the catholic church is responsible for deaths. That this policy will cause deaths is well known and indisputable. I doubt many cyclists deaths are the responsibility of deliberate policy.

TJ, you forgot about the epidemic and the data and the exponential growth

Cyclists are not an organisation with edicts and rules so your point fails.

Fine, now deal with the main issue

but you say that the CC contibutes to deaths, so it is a bad thing.
The CC also contributes to saving lives, so it is a good thing!

Oh no! this simplistic approach leads to cognitive conflict!!!!

Charlie. I merely gave up trying to correct your misunderstandings and deliberate distortions.

You have tuned yourself into an apologist for an organisation with blood on its hands – in the fdace of all teh evidence and expert opinion.

Mind the back door doesn't hit your ass on the way out TJ.

Still, feel free to come back and justify your guesses about epidemics and growth rates whenever you like.

and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back

an organisation with blood on its hands

Same could be said about the NHS couldn't it?

Its not my guesses. its the expert opinions of those wha actually work in the field.

and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back

And the relevance of this is?

Shouldn't today be a public holiday? I mean it's an important day after all? Everyone gets an extra day off and get paid too. No?

Society has already sorted that for you Charlie.

You can save 100 people from being killed but murder one and you're a murderer. The church claims to be there for good. As such the good it does is implicit and it should cause harm. To do so knowingly is not therefore not acceptable.