Panorama Cars V Bikes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001dj03/panorama-road-rage-cars-v-bikes
Watched the first 5 minutes .
I’ve seen too much of this shit over the years,and some of the filmed crashes were (for me)a bit full on and hard to watch.Might finish it later or just fast forward to the conclusion for a happy predictable ending 🙁

Got up early to go for a walk in a great mood, 6Music news then reported not only how many drivers dislike cyclists but also how many admit to punishment passing us, with no comment as to the dangers of it, which is an instant green light for the rest of them to do it too.

My mood will not recover today.

Very much depends if the consequences of opinions and actions are highlighted.

I’ll be giving it a swerve. Social media will be fun.

Just watched the whole thing whilst out walking the dog. Seems quite balanced and lots of people with different viewpoints had their say.

Some people just have the wrong attitude though – if those people weren’t on bikes they’d likely be in cars and so you wouldn’t get anywhere quicker – you’d be in more traffic.

Yes there is bad behaviour on both sides and both need to improve 100%. But in a big 1 tonne metal box you are going to damage people. On a bike you aren’t going to really threaten someone’s life if they’re in said metal box.

Not watched it but did it end with any conclusion other than the predictable us vs them? Any wisdom or suggestions to go forward?

Yeah – Drivers attitude to cyclists stinks.

How do we change it? Surely some of the responsibility lies with ‘us’ the cyclists?

I’ve seen a few ‘public information’ type adverts, from the Government/DVLA etc…, on telly of late but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Not in the slightest bit interested in watching it. Disappointed to see programmes like Panorama stooping to this level. I’d like to think my assumptions on the content are wrong but even the title is antagonistic.

Won’t be watching it as I’ve been on the end of too many drivers who don’t look. Got enough scars and broken bones to show for it, including nearly ending up on 4 wheels permanently (wheelchair).

It’s one reason why I now commute off road as much as possible.

I also heard this morning. What I don’t understand is why this vitriol is only aimed at cyclists. For some reason car drivers seem to be oblivious to electric scooters and mobility scooters, the latter being far slower than a cyclist and, in many cases, now seems to be used as a form of transport. Weird…..

Watched the intro, then had to crack on with my day. Looks much the same as all the other sensationalist media on the topic from the last decade or two. Helmet cam footage, meathead vox-pop sound bites…

Questions to those that did watch it all:
Was it mostly anecdotes? Does it do any deeper analysis of our national culture (car, bicycle and/or broader) was there much in the way of statistics?

How do we change it? Surely some of the responsibility lies with ‘us’ the cyclists?

Does it?

I’ve seen a few ‘public information’ type adverts, from the Government/DVLA etc…, on telly of late but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Well British Cycling now promote petrol and diesel?

I don’t road cycle these days on my own, just don’t like it. Things just seem to be worse after lock down 1 and that lovely summer.

Maybe it’s because I don’t commute very often these days and when I do it’s pretty much all off road, so I’m not used to being in the traffic any more, but UK roads are awful. Well the ones near me are anyway…

Don’t think I could watch the doc, as it’d just make me angry at people’s attitudes.

Not in the slightest bit interested in watching it.

+1. Oh not this shit again.

Attitudes towards other road users – not just people on bikes – is still getting worse. I didn’t think that was possible but it is. My commute (when I do it) is 95% away from traffic with the 5% mostly quiet roads, but I’ve had confrontations even on those.

Coverage on BBC Breakfast this morning was pretty balanced – studio guest from Cycling UK and head of AA (who’s pretty pro-cycling) remotely. No frothing anti-cyclist guests.

Got four minutes in. Saw Rod Liddle’s face appear. Closed window.

Having the likes of him appearing just tells you that the programme is just about polarisation/outrage. He has no valid contribution to make.

Even the name of the programme is inflammatory w**k. Panorama can get in the ****ing sea.

I think we have to engage with motoring bodies and motorists generally to protect ourselves.

We won’t ever reach 100% of the problem motorists but if we don’t try etc…

We all have ‘skin-in-the-game’ here, literally!

Friends and colleagues have been killed and injured and I think we have a responsibility to try and improve things.

If we have to use the media, to help communicate our stories, then so be it.

“Hold a candle to the devil” and all that :o)

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick. He said he liked to give Mamils a good prod from time to time to wind them up – seems a good attitude. Also thought cyclists should have insurance (I don’t actually think this would be a terrible thing – I’ve got BC membership in case some idiot decides to damage me on my bike when I’m out cycling), but he was slightly luke warm on registration surprisingly. Which clearly is never a good idea / isn’t feasible.

The presenter claimed to be a mamil and showed some clips of cycling into London and how scary it could be with buses etc. he had pro cyclist people, the South African bloke from London who goes out of his way to catch drivers doing stupid stuff, a few taxi / van drivers / old people who thought cycle lanes are a terrible idea, a business owner who finds it difficult to do deliveries with pedestrianised / cycle only areas, and some older ladies who have started cycling around because Leicester has put in loads of cycle infrastructure.

The one thing that wasn’t done was a challenge of people’s bad attitudes towards cyclists on the road. It was more – this is the problem, these are a broad range of people’s view on it, but no “this is what we could / should do” to fix it.

The one thing that wasn’t done was a challenge of people’s bad attitudes towards cyclists on the road

That’s a missed opportunity :o(

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.

Understatement of the month.

From his Sunday Times column:

Every day it’s the same. Walk out of my front door with the dog to be swept aside, into a hedge, by a middle-class family from the city who think they’re all Bradley bloody Wiggins. Daddy and Piers, 11, in the peloton. Mummy bringing up the rear with little Poppy, 6, and Oliver, 4. All in Lycra, all with their energy drinks and fatuous expressions on their faces, expressions of self-righteousness and irreproachable virtue. This is a local lane for local people — go back to your tenements, I shout at them. My wife has persuaded me that, strictly speaking, it is against the law to tie piano wire at neck height across the road. Oh, but it’s tempting.

Friends and colleagues have been killed and injured and I think we have a responsibility to try and improve things.

If we have to use the media, to help communicate our stories, then so be it.

When the media frames the argument as cars v cyclists, it’s just adding fuel to the fire. There’s no equality here and there’s nothing ‘balanced’ about it. It’s victim blaming bullshit, when the real arguments are why don’t we have safe spaces for vulnerable people? Why can’t we travel safely without a car? Why has it become acceptable to act so aggressively towards, and endanger people? What can we do to change it?

T#@t$ in cars, t#@t$ on bikes, there will always be a small percentage in both. Then there are the mistakes we make when driving or riding. I am guilty of that. I try not to be a t#@t$ though.

Interestingly I now have a EV and I must admit I am not very attentive when driving it, I am much more alive and awake in my L200 truck and feel a safer driver.

I think we have to engage with motoring bodies and motorists generally to protect ourselves.

We Do?

I mean what engagement do you think will work to improve drivers behaviour, that hasn’t been tried already?

How many people typically belong to “motoring bodies” is there a body that represents arseholes in Range Rovers? or a special Union for White Van drivers that I’m unaware of?

Who exactly do We have the responsibility to “engage” with? I think the real responsibility lies with the police to engage with murderous shits, take away their precious points, money, cars and if necessary freedom.

I’m not really sure what special messages are even needed, I mean does “please don’t run people on bicycles over” really need saying?

The problem is that there’s a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like **** behind the wheel. you’re arguing against ‘normal’ behaviour.

Well said that man ^^

cookeaa – not engaging with the enemy/process is a great way to prolong any conflict.

Of course you can pretend to be ‘all-high-and-mighty’ and name-call (are all Range Rover drivers really “arseholes”?) and just wait to be run-over, knocked-off. Then you can blame ‘them’ all over again and pretend you’re a martyr to the cause etc….

I’d rather see more effort put in to education and, hopefully, watch the casualty rate decline. YMMV :o)

I’m sorry but I just don’t like the implied victim blaming, like we’d all be so much safer if we’d just engage in some sort of imagined constructive dialogue… With whom? And to what end?
By the time I’m being picked out of the radiator it’s a bit late, and there’s seldom a sit down RLI discussion after each near miss to dissect the event. At best you each share your feelings in the form of shouted expletives and carry on with your day a bit angrier…

Try making the same sort of placating arguments for dialogue with murderers or rapists and see how far you get.
Why does dangerous driving require the would-be victims to have a helpful chat with (typically unreceptive) would-be offenders? What’s so special about car owners? (Full disclosure, I also own a car)

Nah, criminal behaviour deserves criminal sanction, the authorities can talk to them it’s not my chuffing job…

Let’s put it this way, you’re talking about trying to start a constructive dialogue with people who worship this God:

It’s been tried, it’s not going to happen…

Anyway I’m off to drive a car somewhere now (for work) responsibly and without endangering bicycle users or Pedestrians. Nobody had to tell me to drive that way, you see not killing/injuring strangers was mentioned as part of the conditions for keeping my driving licence when I obtained it.

I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.

He’s a professional dick, it’s literally his job to be a crashing, reactionary, opinionated bore, and makes the spoutings of Jeremy Clarkson look like the teachings of Confucius.

Education goes so far. The ones who are willing to watch/listen and take it in will change. The rest need to be dealt with by enforcement.

There is almost zero risk of being caught breaking the law on the roads these days.

I think part of the aggression is down to a proportion of motorists, being sold a dream of freedom and then having to deal with the reality that actually driving is a bit shit and even cyclists can get there quicker than they can.

I’d rather see more effort put in to education and, hopefully, watch the casualty rate decline.

Yeah, I remember the recent one, the close pass initiative…. really made a massive difference.

I’m not really sure what special messages are even needed, I mean does “please don’t run people on bicycles over” really need saying?

The problem is that there’s a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like **** behind the wheel. you’re arguing against ‘normal’ behaviour.

^ this.

I do ride considerately and within the law. I am painfully aware of who will come off worse in an incident.
I am deeply aware that the vast majority of drivers are careful and respectful.
I cannot do anything about the few utterly unaware, selfish or downright aggressive drivers I have to interact with on occasion.
I also cannot do anything about the few cyclists who are unaware, selfish or downright aggressive – and neither should I have to, and I certainly don’t have to be lumped in as some homogenous group because I happen to be on a bike…

all with their energy drinks and fatuous expressions on their faces, expressions of self-righteousness and irreproachable virtue

Is this actually a thing? I have been accused of this, once by a dude in his S5 at a set of temp traffic lights heading into Kingston recently. I was with a mate, we were just getting back from an amazing ride (road) the sun was out and we were picking are way through a massive static traffic line.

I thought he was joking first, but he then went nuts cos I was smiling I think, he then threatened to kill me. All because we had weaved our way through the traffic to get to the front. The road was narrow and the cars were blocking the way so we had no choice.

I do think some people just cant cope with bikes just sailing past them in their cars. I swear some people seem to drift out as you are passing sometimes.

Wouldn’t have watched it, I know how it is on the roads and don’t need clickbait rubbish. If it was positive I can go back and watch it later (read thread, answer=no). Which gets me onto how I’m not sure I can justify or want a TV license anymore. Shows like this, Question Time etc just makes me feel like I’m buying the TV equivalent of the Telegraph with my £160 a year.

“You don’t need a TV Licence if you never watch live on any channel, TV service or streaming service, or use BBC iPlayer*. On any device.”

Live TV … I can’t think of anything I need to (or still do) watch live. Online catch-up covers it all.

I’d miss ‘Mortimer and Whitehouse Go Fishing’ at the moment and that’s pretty much it. Maybe I’m wrong and missing a lot of great BBC content – go on, convince me.. You have to get past the BBC platforming Rod Liddle here and Julia H-B, Farage etc as often as they do compared to how rarely the opposing types get on there. Good luck.

There is almost zero risk of being caught breaking the law on the roads these days.

Be curious to see if more widespread personal camera usage might start to balance this out a bit.

Problem is, as others have said, shows which go for “cars vs cyclists” just help perpetuate it.
There are arsehole car drivers who, as a driver, I feel no responsibility for.
There are arsehole cyclists who, as a cyclist, I feel no responsibility for.

Since in my experience an arsehole is an arsehole whether they are driving or cycling personally I prefer them to be cycling. Since that generally results in a lower risk to everyone else.

bfw
Full Member

Is this actually a thing?

Course not, like all the best hysterical horseshitmongers, Rod Liddle divides his time between hating and fearing things that don’t exist outside his head.

Do geezers give Gary Gammon on his supermarket bike with pool cues under his arm on the way to the club the same level of hatred as you and I?

but what are the cycling bodies doing to change drivers attitudes?

Absolutely none of those “share with care” and “respect other road users” adverts, campaigns etc have ever worked.

Over the decades, hundreds of millions of pounds has been spaffed up the wall “encouraging” drivers to be responsible. None of it ever works.

There are two things that work. Proper safe segregated infrastructure that actually serves a purpose (ie not some footpath round the arse end of an industrial estate just to get cyclists off the road) and proper police enforcement with meaningful punishment/fines for transgressions.

Neither of which we have in this country.

The problem is that there’s a steady stream of reinforcing messages out there in the media for people who want to behave like **** behind the wheel. you’re arguing against ‘normal’ behaviour.

This, with no effective come back and, sadly, not enough resources to Police the situation on the roads – whether it’s drivers or cyclists breaking the law.

Pretty sure threatening harm to someone or a group of people on social IS a crime? Blatantly displaying a lack of understanding of the “rules of the road” on social media certainly should be.12 points and you lose your license with no exception – it’s a punishment, the clue is in the name.

Oh yeah, for bonus points, Jeremy Vines TV show had this issue on this morning as well

It’s so frurstating because ebikes and cargo ebikes are opening up the possibility of more and more people cycling. We have a cargo bike and regarularly get stopped by all sorts of (non-cycling enthusiast) people asking about it.

At the same time, petrol and cars just keep getting more and more expensive.

I’d agree none of this will change via education.
We need to do what France and Germany are doing and build infrastructure, but it seems impossible to get that done. It only takes one councillor to get whole projects binned or postponed indefinitely with yet another consultation carried out.

I cannot do anything about the few utterly unaware, selfish or downright aggressive drivers I have to interact with on occasion.
I also cannot do anything about the few cyclists who are unaware, selfish or downright aggressive – and neither should I have to, and I certainly don’t have to be lumped in as some homogenous group because I happen to be on a bike…

^^This^^ x1000%
It’s why I prefer the terms ‘People on bicycles’ and ‘people in cars’ to ‘cyclists’ and ‘motorists’ (although I probably slipped up and used the more pejorative terms above I’m sure) both to humanise the individuals in control of a given vehicle and try to remove/challenge the idea of conflicting “groups”. We’re all just people, very few people define themselves soley by their preferred method of transport, those that do are probably best avoided TBH….

I am not a “cyclist” or a “motorist” I am a person who happens to own and use both forms of transport, neither really changes my rights or responsibilities to other people.

I just wrote a complaint to the bbc about the title of the programme.

You can do the same here if you want to.

I’ve not watched the programme yet but might.