Owen Paterson #Torysleaze

Good lord, the Express used as a source

And Skwarkbox

Ah, shooting the messenger. Would you prefer it if I used an ‘approved’ media source?

Here you go:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/03/keir-starmer-challenged-to-publish-all-campaign-donations

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-woos-rich-donors-after-unite-cuts-funding-bxjw80wsn

Feel free to prove any of the above wrong.

The Express is utter garbage and should never be used as a source of anything beyond being an example of the most untrustworthy distorted mainstream “news” outlet in the U.K.

It is complete and utter shite that does not deserve to be categorised as “news”

I made no comment on whether the point you was making was right or wrong.

Edit, sorry, forgot the last sentence

So; prove them (and the Times) wrong then.

I completely agree that the Telegraph is a shit-sheet. But in this instance, they are publishing facts. That Labour is charging people money for access to politicians and Starmer. A system which obviously only favours those with money.

Anyone who is using this moment to attack Labour rather than the Tories are part of the problem.

They’ve got to replace the money from all those lost members, the declining union support and all those lawsuits somehow! Going to take a while at £500 a pop though.

Yet again you seem to prefer to troll rather than discuss. Which is a pity as you have made multiple good points previously, in other threads.

The good points are the aberrations, the usual suspects point out that I’m an poorly educated neo facist who eats babies (ok the last bit was made up) with remarkable frequency

I wonder what could be achieved with positivity rather than negativity?

Sometimes you get fed up with people who think it should be open season on elected representatives and that violence or the threat of violence should be supported to ensure they have no safe space. Worse still they are trying to encourage others rather than do it themselves. They should be referred to PREVENT, both by forum users and administrators.

They designed the rules, they gerrymander constituencies

Really, which parliamentary constituencies are being gerrymandered? Specific examples if you don’t mind.

The narrative that the democracy is broken/stolen/sold is Trumpian bollox. The system may be imperfect but I fear the replacement by mob rule and people’s committees etc a lot more.

As for MPs being in it for themselves, I’m sure some are, I am also sure plenty aren’t, most do a reasonable job, some don’t. Parliamentary scrutiny needs to improve both of policy and legislation but that doesn’t mean throwing out the whole system for something even the left can’t define or agree on.

Anyone who is using this moment to attack Labour rather than the Tories are part of the problem.

This, from someone who condemned the graffiti ‘attack’ on the tories… :D Who are we allowed to attack then? Please enlighten us.

I’m more concerned with having a fairer society, than the fortunes of any party. I’m not a Labour member or voter. So go ahead; blame me. It’s all my fault.

They should be referred to PREVENT, both by forum users and administrators.

Lol!

Sorry, what was that, Mr Orwell? Yes, I know….

And yet another thread is derailed and heads off down the ‘I’m leftier than you, comrade’ wormhole with the usual suspects..

The Express is utter garbage and should never be used as a source of anything beyond being an example of the most untrustworthy distorted mainstream “news” outlet in the U.K.

I agree. The Daily Mail gets all the stick primarily because it has such a huge readership. But imo the Daily Express is far worse.

The problem however arises because a newspaper such as the Guardian, which is hugely trusted here, doesn’t want to touch stories which are critical of Starmer’s Labour Party, unless they are already in the public domain.

Anyone who is using this moment to attack Labour rather than the Tories are part of the problem.

Typical labour, victim blaming :-)

That Skwarkbox article is garbage too, vague meaningless tripe that’s little more than “ooh lokl, nudge nudge, wink wink”

Although it seems they’ve not long ago been handed a £1.3m libel bill with Unite, so maybe keeping it vague is prudent.

Certainly nothing in there saying, “cash for influence”

yet another thread is derailed and heads off down the ‘I’m leftier than you, comrade’ wormhole…

Very few people create a song and dance about how leftie they are. But you in contrast binners throw the leftie accusation with tedious regularity.

Johnson needs a culture war topic to distract from this farce ASAP

How long before he triggers A16?

It’ll be gunboats in the channel first, I reckon. That was the script at the last by-election, wasn’t it? And Macron has an election coming too, so he’s ratcheting up the nationalist flag-waving too. Suits both their agendas

I expect Priti will suggest bringing back public flogging too, or using submarines to torpedo migrant boats

I’m more concerned with having a fairer society, than the fortunes of any party. I’m not a Labour member or voter. So go ahead; blame me. It’s all my fault.

This in spades :-)

Tory sleaze is an actual light-weight 90s diversion when so many are dying per day. Bit like wallpaper-gate.

Next week no one will care.

Labour yet again putting more effort into attacking the government with stuff like this than going hard against COVID response, poverty etc etc.

Good article here :

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/labour-will-struggle-to-weaponise-greensill-row-after-major-sleaze-misfire-left-voters-unmoved-12303549

Voter after voter post-election criticised Sir Keir Starmer for attacking Boris Johnson’s wallpaper – a reference to the inquiries over who initially funded the PM’s flat overhaul – without putting up his own vision first.

Labour appear to have toxified the issue of sleaze.

For now, they cannot rely on it working to their advantage to attack Boris Johnson.

They have effectively disabled an important opposition tool and line of attack by doing it too hard, too bluntly, without having enough of a vision to paint.

This doesn’t mean Greensill isn’t important. It just means Labour’s missteps mean they can’t weaponise it.

The article is a few months old but the points still apply imo. Labour must combine an attack on the Tories with offering a credible alternative, something which they have repeatedly proved incapable of doing.

The problem however arises because a newspaper such as the Guardian, which is hugely trusted here, doesn’t want to touch stories which are critical of Starmer’s Labour Party, unless they are already in the public domain

That’ll be the same Guardian that employs Owen Jones as a columnist, thus ensuring regular articles slagging off Starmer/Blairites/Red Tory etc?

That one?

Starmer made some good points on law and order as part of his Paterson response, it was well thought out and there’s 2 more Johnson investigations to come plus a legacy of PPE corruption to unwind

Only part of what Labour needs to present, but Paterson farce has provided a good toehold

Mogg, Leadsome, jenkin etc all made themselves look like idiots- standard

But kwarteng suggesting the commissioner should quit may have been exactly what Johnson told him to say but was a proper disgrace

https://news.sky.com/story/owen-paterson-resignation-labour-call-for-investigation-into-kwasi-kwartengs-comments-to-sky-news-about-standards-watchdog-12460151

That one?

Yes that’s the one.

You need to have a certain amount of gullibility to believe that the Guardian treats the Labour Party with the same robust standards as it does the Conservative Party when it comes to investigative journalism.

And to be perfectly fair that isn’t their job.

Their job is to provide news from a vaguely liberal wishy-washy perspective.

Yeah, that Kwasi Kwartang interview made it as plain as day what the actual agenda was.

They really do have a total contempt for democracy.

Their job is to provide news from a vaguely liberal wishy-washy perspective

And the problem with that is…?

If you want a more “TO THE BARRICADES, COMRADES!!!” take on things then there’s Skwakbox, the Canary etc. if that’s your bag?

And the problem with that is…?

Well if you had read the whole post you would have seen the bit where I said : “And to be perfectly fair that isn’t their job.”

There is no suggestion that there is anything wrong with the Guardian providing news from a perspective that appeals to whingeing middle-class liberals like yourself.

I’m more concerned with having a fairer society, than the fortunes of any party.

Not going to happen with the tories in. How do you propose to get them out?

Starmer made some good points on law and order as part of his Paterson response, it was well thought out and there’s 2 more Johnson investigations to come plus a legacy of PPE corruption to unwind

Only part of what Labour needs to present, but Paterson farce has provided a good toehold

The trouble is that this is countered by a politicians are the problem, “they’re all as bad as each other…” As seen on this page.

Well, I have to have something to read with my fairtrade organic soya latte, comrade

They should be referred to PREVENT, both by forum users and administrators.

ROFL! I think the state has bigger fish to fry than bored mountain bikers wasting time on the internet. To be brutally honest though, who among us wouldn’t feel the urge to do something stupid if you saw Rees-Mogg in the street with no bodyguards? Same goes for the likes of Redwood, IDS, Francois, Bridgen, Farage etc. Labour has it’s fair share too such as Austin, Streeting, Mandelson etc. Maybe what we need is a modern version of the Red Army Faction or the SLA. Those guys would be spoilt for choice today.

To be brutally honest though, who among us wouldn’t feel the urge to do something stupid if you saw Rees-Mogg in the street with no bodyguards

Honestly, nope cant say I would feel the urge. Perhaps after a few beers I might decide to ask where his nanny is but beyond that nowt.
Same for all the others

who among us wouldn’t feel the urge to do something stupid if you saw Rees-Mogg in the street with no bodyguards? Same goes for the likes of Redwood, IDS, Francois, Bridgen, Farage etc.

Nigel Farage once got on the same bus as me, unaccompanied. He was upstairs I was downstairs. He traveled from Bromley to Biggin Hill (he has a house nearby in Downe) so despite having plenty of time to do it I missed my opportunity to make the national headlines.

Tbh I found it quite disconcerting that he was able to stroll onto a bus unaccompanied. I was torn between knowing that he is a complete **** and almost having a tiny smidget of grudging respect that he was prepared to take public transport unaccompanied.

What surprised me most though was how little he appeared to be recognised by others, despite wearing a typically attention-seeking garish striped blazer.

I can’t remember how long ago it was but I guess it was probably about 10 years ago. I had to point out to my friend “that’s the ukip leader Nigel Farage”. I don’t for a minute believe that he could get on a bus unaccompanied now.

my fairtrade organic soya latte,

I didn’t know Rammy Gregg’s did them

I think the state has bigger fish to fry than bored mountain bikers wasting time on the internet

You ride a bike?

Most haven’t a clue who you are, but you are online consistently advocating for violence against elected representatives of the community. Not sure how it makes you any different to the people on the pathway to violence.

Tbh I found it quite disconcerting that he was able to stroll onto a bus unaccompanied.

My view is that all elected representatives should catch the bus once a week in the area they represent. Not so they can be threatened, but so they see it as their voters do

Secondary advantage is that bus services would naturally improve

If you’re referring to the US capitol insurrection I didn’t have much of a problem with that.

Perhaps you should say that to the families of the people they helped to kill.

Most haven’t a clue who you are

You do realise this place is make believe don’t you? Whether you know who I am or not it has little bearing on what I say here.

There’s a big difference between advocating violence and being massively surprised or bothered if/when it happens. Do I think people should beat up MPs? No, because ultimately sacrificing yourself to a life in prison isn’t worth whatever temporary satisfaction you think it may provide. Would I be particularly surprised or bothered if it did happen? Not really.

There are huge numbers people out there who have suffered massively because of the actions of a great number of (mostly tory) MPs. If these MPs want to feel safe walking down the street in their constituencies or getting the bus (as if!), then perhaps they should reflect on how they conduct themselves and use the priveleged position they’ve been put in to help their electors rather than themselves.

Perhaps you should say that to the families of the people they helped to kill.

Perhaps those defending the US government should say that to the people who the US government has killed via it’s military or it’s economic policies? Violence goes both ways, and it’s always the state which does the vast majority of it.

^^^
So you’re saying that now we see the violence inherent in the system? Once you give up on politics what have you got?

plus a legacy of PPE corruption to unwind

https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/exclusive-suffolk-at-centre-of-multi-million-alleged-cover-up-of-government-ppe-scandal/

So you’re saying that now we see the violence inherent in the system?

Yes, we can always have a good laugh at Monty Python, you could have at least posted a youtube video. But it’s a simple fact that there is violence in the system, and it’s accepted because it’s difficult to pin it on any one person or policy (apart from Blair of course). That’s why MPs are the lightning rods for the anger generated when people see through the propaganda, because they are the people entrusted to operate the power of the state on behalf of their consituents. But in reality they do the opposite, they exercise that power against their constituents and in their own interests, so they can hardly be surprised if now and again that anger comes back to bite them.

[ good reference johnx2 ]

An MP who should have lost their job has. He should not be attacked. His successor should not face real bodily harm (or death), either while carrying out their constituency surgeries, or using public transport. Their offices should not be attacked (by all means glue yourself to their office doorstep wearing a t-shirt complaining about their political behaviour). Those wishing real harm on any MP and their offices are putting all MPs at risk, and then the idea of “them” having any idea what “we” need will be for the birds… as “they” will have to be kept apart from “us”, or feel the results of everyone’s frustration in the from of violence. If you really think that it’s a “shame” that violence isn’t occurring, and not just brushing up your slipper wearing anarchist image because you think “this place is make believe”, that is quite depressing.

An MP who should have lost their job has.

How many others who should also lose their jobs have? The only reason Paterson has gone is because his incompetent boss saw an opportunity to help himself and totally cocked it up. Had that not happened he would still be in a job, and all the others like him are still in their jobs with no fear of ending up like him. So please don’t try and claim this as a victory for transparency and accountability, it’s the very opposite of that.

and then the idea of “them” having any idea what “we” need will be for the birds… as “they” will have to be kept apart from “us”

Err, wakey, wakey, they already are apart from ‘us’. Or have you not been paying attention? It amazes me how many supposed lefties here are quick to defend corrupt tory MPs. It’s clear to me now why they get away with it.

So please don’t try and claim this as a victory for transparency and accountability

I didn’t. I’m saying that we need to remove MPs, not physically attack them. Between elections it is just about impossible to remove a sitting MP. I still don’t think that they or their offices should be attacked… mostly because that makes it open season on all MPs, not matter what they do in office. It could well be the few MPs that you and I feel do try to work for “us” that end up with the greatest threat against them as they attempt to do so.

defend corrupt tory MPs

I didn’t.

Really, which parliamentary constituencies are being gerrymandered? Specific examples if you don’t mind.

The narrative that the democracy is broken/stolen/sold is Trumpian bollox. The system may be imperfect but I fear the replacement by mob rule and people’s committees etc a lot more.

As for MPs being in it for themselves, I’m sure some are, I am also sure plenty aren’t, most do a reasonable job, some don’t. Parliamentary scrutiny needs to improve both of policy and legislation but that doesn’t mean throwing out the whole system for something even the left can’t define or agree on.

+1