Overtime and 'professional days'

Some discussion at work, so thought I’d throw it open to the masses here.

People here have contracts saying they do 35 hours a week (7 hours a day) and are entitles to overtime. Many do extra hours, but not all claim and there is discussion that working extra hour in a London office should be considered part of the ‘professional day’ and not paid as O/T

Personally, I think if people have worked, then they should be paid the O/T. What do you lot think?

My contract says that I do that hours required to carry out my work professionally.

overtime?

It is dependent on what each contract says. The industry that I’m in does tend to pay overtime but I have had other jobs that haven’t. That being said, if you are constantly having to work overtime to get your job done then either you aren’t up to the job and you should be replaced or you are being asked to do too much and you need someone else to help.

I regard a ‘professional day’ at a term which applies to contractors on day rate, and it’s basically 10 hours. For contractors on hourly rate, you book what you work. For staff, it depends on the organisation, but I always think it’s not unreasonable to do an hour a day extra, if the workload demands it. Problem is, more and more staff jobs are paying for 37, and expecting 47, 57 or 67 hours a week. Which is great, until you realise you earn less per hour as a professional then working in a fast food outlet. 😀

I regard a ‘professional day’ at a term which applies to contractors on day rate, and it’s basically 10 hours.

😆

Anyone tried that on me, and I’d be out the door. Not averse to putting in the extra if there’s mitigating circumstances, but as a regular day, no way. As a developer mind- I guess it depends on your seniority- might be acceptable as a PM if you’ve salvaging a failing project, but I’d expect that to be clear up front.

If you like your job, it satisfies you and the salary is still suitable for the hours you do, or it enhances your promotion chances significantly or otherwise benefits you, or there’s other benefits or perks then it can be worth it, you look at the complete package- but if it’s just a case of letting the company take advantage because “that’s just how it is” then they can **** off.

To me it’s always been pretty simple… When I’m getting paid, I work hard. When I’m working, I get paid. I used to think “Ah well, if you want to work for free that’s your problem” but every person who does that undermines every other person who won’t. But then this also reflects on the work I’ve been doing, none of it’s been so great or so well paid as to make the sacrifice worthwhile.

Working 5 hours overtime unpaid a week is much the same as taking a 12.5% pay cut. Most people wouldn’t stand for that but for some reason unpaid overtime seems to sneak under the radar, maybe because “it’s only an hour”. If you came in an hour late what would the result be?

I would understand ‘Overtime’ as a prearranged agreeement with extra pay/rewards rather than ‘staying late to finish something’ which is pretty usual.

Possibly different if you’re in a ‘time sheet’ job with hourly rates & clocking on/off etc rather than a salaried job….

If you work more than your contracted hours or 37.5 per week then it’s overtime, they can’t force you to work it but they don’t necessarily have to pay you either.

All depends. Typically the more you’re paid and the more ‘professional’ the job is considered to be, the more it’s expected that you’ll do extra time as required to get the job done. I personally wouldn’t do a job that paid me for say 37 hours but expected me to routinely work significantly more – I’d expect my salary to reflect the additional hours in that case rather than asking for OT.

On the other hand, when I do have to work late or at the weekend, I don’t expect to be paid for that – it’s just part of the job.

I’ve not been offered overtime pay since about 1987, my contract says “time necessary to complete work” which is ok up to a point.
An hour a day is commonplace (whole dept not just me) and 2 or 3 hours extra in a day to meet deadlines not as rare as I’d like.
What does p me off is when I’ve done 10 or 15 extra hours in a week for nothing and not been offered anything; whereas the guy who finishes on time but does 8 hours on a Saturday gets a day off in lieu.

We’re expected to do the first hour for free, after that its overtime (and the 1st hour then gets paid) but of a bummer if you rush out the door after 59minutes.

I stopped worrying what I get paid per hour when I stopped working in John Menzies at age 17

I don’t get overtime while other people in the same line of work do (and occasionally on the same worksite). As soon as I found this out, I adopted a little rule that says any overtime I do comes off the start of my next shift. No-one’s pulled me up on this yet, so I’ll continue to do it.

Clearly there are some suckers on here. The time my company starts giving me extra hours off because I’ve got a lot on at home is the time I start working extra hours for free because there’s a lot on in work. Personally I always reckon I’m being good working extra hours when the project demands and then claiming money (or toil) for them.

Having said that, 2 grades above me don’t get overtime, and it’s more limited for the grade above me, but I doubt that will ever concern me.

I worked a couple of Sat/Sun mornings here, but Boss tells me to tot up the hours at the corresponding overtime rate (x1.3/hr for first 2hrs weekdays, then x1.5/hr, x1.5 Sat & x2 Sun), then take them off as half/full days to suit. Wont let me build up to more than 3 days though.
3 biking dyas for summer is how I see it. 😉
I’d normally work over to suit load anyway, but my boss is fair & is flexible. If I’m running CFD I’ll gladly pop in to check/reset in the evening, as I live close. I do whats needed to fulfill my role. If I couldnt I’d would say something.
What pisses me off is those that religiously start & finish on the buzzer, then complain cos I can come in a bit late & they cant.

Give and take, sometimes I work lots of unpaid overtime, sometimes I come in late or go home early to run errands. At the end of the day if you feel abused, you can always quit.

Salaried – do whatever the hours are required to get the job done. Receive fixed amount of money.

Waged – do whatever is required to get the job done. Paid extra for working outside contracted hours.

I’m always amazed how picky people are about what they will and won’t do in work. I’m not up for exploitation (been on the receiving end of that), but equally the down tools “you’re not paying me” mentality isn’t altogether helpful either.

Salaried IT developer in a manufacturing company. Contracted hours are 39 per week. If it’s not finished at the end of one day, I carry on with it the next. Never have deadlines per se, but if I did, any that were missed would probably be down to the end user not having time (or forgetting) to test.

I don’t get paid overtime, except forr the very rare “helping with a stock count” for which i’d get an extra £50 and a day off in lieu

If I’m late in on a morning, I leave late in the evening, otherwise I’m out the door no more than 15minutes late, UNLESS I get bogged down on somethiing.
If you need to work longer than you get paid for, either you have too much work or you’re not very good at it

I was watching Alien last night and this topic came up with the maintenance guys aboard the Nostromo, Brett and Parker spend the whole time moaning about Pay…

Salaried here. Our contract is 9 till 5 or 5.30 . you would be viewed as suspect if you clock watched. Most work 9 till 6 and don’t take full lunch hours and take preparation home.

If we do call out on a night or weekend or Bank Holiday we do get 50% of the fee though.

In exchange for not clock watching we expect a degree of flexibility if we need to come in late or leave early.

Is there not always an element of ‘good will’ or ‘common sense’ in this?

E.g. Things are not to hectic, we realise you also have life to get on with (haircut, banks, school run) so do that but don’t take the urine. When things are hectic, we’d kinda like all hands to the pump to get it done as required.

That,s how I manage (salaried) teams, and as long as you don’t take the urine as a boss, or as an employee, you can deliver amazing things. Everyone wins. Might be called ‘outcomes focussed’ in management bull.

Just a thought, and I realise that this might not apply in every industry, esp Government, but I am sure it has broad applicability across private sector.

Kev

If you need to work longer than you get paid for, either you have too much work or you’re not very good at it

You assume that the nominal stated hours in your contract and what you are paid match up.

I work in a profession where that is quite categorically not the case. Working in private practice, I was expected to work literally what it took – if that meant (as it did, sadly more than once) arriving in work on Thursday morning and not leaving until Saturday, then those were the hours I was paid for.

big_scot_nanny – Member

“Is there not always an element of ‘good will’ or ‘common sense’ in this?”

There ought to be. But the sort of management that will exploit overtime, or give you more work than can be done in a day then complain if you leave before it’s done, are exactly the same sort of management who’ll look at you with blank-faced shock if you ask to leave 30 minutes early.

I think it’s give and take. You have to try and manage your manager usually and agree between you how to handle it. In some companies they take the piss, it’s up to you if you accept it, I don’t mind doing extra hours as long as there’s agreement I get compensated for it, with either time in lieu or paid or maybe being allowed to leave early when things are quiet. I wouldn’t stay in a job long if the hours were taking the piss and eating into my own time. I work to live. Not live to work. And yes I even enjoy my job !

I’ve worked in places where an hour every day was expected, and just ignored it, didn’t seem to harm my career.

Nowadays (university job ), I have times when I do 40 hours in 3 days, or do weekend days until 2am in the morning , but on the flup side, if there’s not much on, or I’ve worked too much, nobody tells me off for taking a biking day in lieu.

I know this is now veering of topic a bit, but it is a very interesting subject. I think a huge chunk, assuming you are not in private practice or self employed, is down to management/leadership. If you have a complete James Hunt with zero appreciation for people, it all falls on it’s arse.

If that is the situation, the comment I would make to the OP are to do exactly as it says on the tin, and ensure that is upheld/documented. It should not get to that however, as I do not believe working like that is good for employee/employer or the job being done.

I have a feeling that most people work for their boss, not for the company.

A quick aside, my firm has given up any semblance of work to live/live to work, and now focuses on ‘Work/Life Integration’. WTF happened to balance??!?!? 😆

Kev

If the contract states you are entitled to overtime, you are entitled to it. Simples.

I am contacted for 37 hours a week but not entitled to overtime. If it is required it is expected (in emergency situations for examples). If it was a significant amount of time then TOIL can be claimed.

think most people would do some extra work gratis due to pressures or a one off type scenario. As for working for free it is an oxy moron.
The people at ours who do it always get promotion though. I console myself with the fact that my hourly rate is still more than theirs once you factor in their free overtime.

I’m contracted to 35 hours, but typically work much longer than that, especially if you count international traveling time. The flipside of that is the benefits are excellent, I get a lot of holiday and they are VERY flexible about things like working from home, morning off to go to the doctors, coming in late, getting out early for a personal appointment etc etc.
Presenteeism is bollocks, it’s all about delivery.

Give and take, very happy with it.

My contract states salary based on 38 hrs a week I have been told i’m expected to do 46 hours per week. I get an overtime rate for any hours after this but if you have not done 46 hours a week all month the extra hours you did are deducted. So if you work 56 hours in a week and decide to go home what is called “early” and only do 38 hours the following week you get nada. We are not that busy at the moment and could justify going at 4 very easily but the powers that be say we have to be there just in case. BOLLOCKS. I work 7.30 till 5.30 and 4 on a friday. Anyone need a multi skilled operative doesn’t mind working just would like a bit of give and take?

I’m contracted to 39 hours per week Monday to Friday.

If those hours are done after 10pm start i.e. a night shift I get 20% uplift.

At weekends i.e. 00:01 Saturday until 23:59 Sunday I get 75% uplift.

Regardless of ho many hours I do during the ‘normal’ working week I get paid 39 hours, I also work in Central London and regularly do 10 hours a day.

has to be an 11 hour day here before we are

a) Paid AT ALL over 7.5hrs
b) given the TOIL
c) Thanked or acknowledged.

On site, 2 hours away, at 8am tommorow, but wont get paid till 9.
will probably be there well after 5,

SAFE

AS

DUCKS (in flackjackets)

last year I did 89 hours unpaid un TOILed
one of our drillers did 277

thats 7 working weeks

Scene from a management meeting at Sturmey and Olly’s place

If you are working a lot of unpaid overtime, you’re doing someone out of a job.

haircut, banks,

hair cutters and banks are open Saturdays, and cash machines are everywhere. This is the 21st century, you don’t actually need to go to the branch that often. Well, I don’t, anyway.

in my job there’s no need to work overtime as often as you lot seem to be expected to. They’re taking you for a ride.

Shift allowance is a different matter, good to see at least some people get it.

BTW one week in four I get the out of hours IT helpdesk phone just in case anything happens that needs our assistance – the factory works 3 shifts 24 hours, five & a half days a week. It could ring at any time between 5pm and 8am, although it very rarely does. In theory I get nothing but a “thank you” for this, but our manager is flexible enough to allow some give & take. This is a voluntary arrangement on both sides.

It’s all about company culture and expectation.
well it is where I work – when we’re busy I’ll work 12 hours a day, when we’re not I’ll do 9 to 5 and sometimes take a couple of hours for lunch, last week I got puddled on a school night and couldn’t get in ’til 10am but no-one was bothered as they know I work hard when I have to.
overtime is suitable for certain professions and industries, but not others.
saying that, if we got overtime I would claim every penny I worked past 5pm.

If it balanced out over time – give and take, then I’d happily do overtime for free. However if it was 7-10hrs extra per week over contract, every week, then I wouldn’t. Why wasn’t the job advertised at the higher working week?

to top it off, with working crap hours unpaid.

when we are quiet, its 9 to 5 minimum.

all take, no give, but there are no other jobs in the sector.
when the “market” picks up, they are going to get a shock, as 70% of the staff will be off quicker than you can say…. something short.