Osbourne says no to currency union.

Mol, they are not. But this reflects the undercurrent here as defined by Jurassic Jim’s outburst and the anti-thatcher legacy that so-called forward thinking yS still cannot shake off.

It takes a very narrow perspective to think of business and people conflicting – but again this is a Jurassic legacy that people try to pretend has something to do with neo-classical or neo-liberal orthodoxy.

That is completely divorced from reality. Business only survive if they are able to satisfy the needs (sometimes conflicting) of three parties: staff, customers and suppliers of capital. All three are groups of people. In other words, people engaging with people at each of these levels. It may suit this false agenda by re-using the negative (!) tactic of them and us, but that is bllx. We live in the 21C now. Well some of us at least.

More vandalism by Yes supporters

I’m assuming this is just you being you, and this really doesn’t need actual explaining?

Well, I suspect I know what you mean – you are talking about fat cats lining their pockets – but you don’t seem to understand that the needs of people ARE the needs of business in MOST cases. You cannot set one against the other as if they are different.

If you are talking about inequality in society, or greed in upper management, then say so.

BruceWee – Member
More vandalism by Yes supporters

Bloody separationists. They climb up there every 700 years, regular as clockwork.

Business only survive if they are able to satisfy the needs (sometimes conflicting) of three parties: staff, customers and suppliers of capital

unless the ‘market’ has been rigged in your favour, see… Utilities, Private Healthcare, Banking, Military spending, Media.

more vandalism by yes supporters

Where? nothing damaged its attached to the wire mesh on the rock face

Mol, I’m talking about a version of rapacious liberal capitalism that has grown over the last 30 years, where successive govts. have fire sold nearly all public housing, all utilities, most social service/ council services including prisons, to the needs of financial and business elites. Next on the list, fire, police and the NHS.

we have a society that aims to serve the needs of the top 1% over nearly all of the rest of the population, and a growing inequality and underclass of poor and ill-educated consumers.

That’s why the YES campaign are gaining ground against a NO campaign who can only seem to think in these terms. There is so much to celebrate in our Union, but the narrow business and fiscal priorities of a tiny elite should not be high amongst them, and that’s all the Traditional Westminster parties seems to be able to do.

As far as time scales go, I think the biggest hurdle will be whether or not Spain gives the process an easy passage or attempts to frustrate and delay it.

@jota IMO Spain will be very disruptive, it doesn’t want to give the Catalans any hint that Indepedence would be a simple process.

On the business leaders point the fact is they have done the contingency planning, they have done the calculations and they know independence is bad news for their businesses in terms of higher costs which will inevitably be passed onto consumers with the biggest impact on the smaller Scottish population

have fire sold nearly all public housing, all utilities, most social service/ council services including prisons, to the needs of financial and business elites.

Do you really think things will change in an iScotland?

The trains will still be expensive.
There will be no significant increase in social housing.
The utilities will remain in private hands.

You will not get the socialist utopia you are dreaming of.

So we have hardly developed since the 70s, is that correct?

have fire sold nearly all public housing, all utilities, most social service/ council services including prisons,

I’m going to let you in on a secret

the reason that they keep selling things is because they’re spending more than they can take in in tax, this isn’t new, its been going on for decades.

we’re not talking about a couple of pence either way on income tax here, we’re talking about a 15% across the board increase in taxation to match government spending with income.

Scotland, UK, every country has four choices:

Tax more
Spend Less
Borrow (and pay interest)
Sell assets

Which one would you prefer?

they have done the calculations and they know independence is bad news for their businesses in terms of higher costs which will inevitably be passed onto consumers

but wait…Surely (as the masters of business always tell us) is that the markets are self correcting. So for every business that dares increase it’s prices, that will open a gap in the market to allow other cheaper options to move in and occupy the space. Isn’t that how it works?

Unless of course, what business actually want is a continuation of the market that they’re happy with, and could do without the competition thanks very much

Do you really think things will change in an iScotland?

Dunno, they could you know, vote on it?

ninfan, agree. and AS and YES have done a piss poor job of explaining how they are simultaneously going to raise money for all the public spending, whilst at the same time being “light touch” for business.

So for every business that dares increase it’s prices, that will open a gap in the market to allow other cheaper options to move in and occupy the space. Isn’t that how it works?

Yes, but surely those companies will have to account for the same (higher) costs of doing business too.

A larger company generally has economy of scale – ie. higher purchasing power and an ability to spread costs across the business unit, thats why your local corner shop normally costs more than Tesco..

its a bit like countries really 😉

What ninfan says above ^^

tough call ninfan but on balance i went for
Tax more

and a bigger state
You 😉

AS goes for

Tax less
Spend more
Piss investors off
Ignore deficit and debt dynamics

The new orthodoxy and a first in the world of global economics and politics. Bets on will in work……..

But it’s ok because we fell voted for it.

Tax more, and a bigger state,

fine more than happy with that being your choice

Now, how abut an experiment – this month, when your wages come in, take 15% of your gross wage and put it in a glass jar – then try and live on whats left for the rest of the month, and see what date you end up smashing the jar 😀

You wouldn’t start a business up without knowing all your numbers and that companies will supply you let alone a starting a country.

Mol, I’m talking about a version of rapacious liberal capitalism that has grown over the last 30 years,

Well fair enough, but be specific! Anti-business rhetoric makes no sense, it clouds the issues.

As for your analysis of economics, well you lot in general look like adolescents alongside those on this thread who actually study this stuff and do it for a living. You make it out to be a simple case of evil overlords whose aim is to make poor people poorer.

Personally I think this is total bollocks. What business leaders want to do is compete, and in order to do this they have to slash outgoings and increase profits to satisfy shareholders. It’s not evil, it’s amorality. The role of government is to protect the workers. However on doing this it risks global competitiveness c.f. France.

We do have a lot of problems, but much is being achieved. Things are quite possibly better than they were in the 70s. They could be better still of course, and for this I really do blame Thatcher.

Now, how abut an experiment – this month, when your wages come in, take 15% of your gross wage and put it in a glass jar – then try and live on whats left for the rest of the month, and see what date you end up smashing the jar

Its ok I am saving for a rainy day and living within my means …is that not what the rigth says about good housekeeping

What business leaders want to do is compete, and in order to do this they have to slash outgoings and increase profits to satisfy shareholders. It’s not evil, it’s amorality. The role of government is to protect the workers

Given this why did you ask

Incidentally, why are the needs of business different to the needs of people?

??/

Its obvious that what they want is low costs – say wages , no sick pay, zero hour contracts, able to sack folk etc and what people want is protection form that. Remember when business decided and we had dark satanic mills where children a syoung as 4 worked for 10-20 % of the adult wage for up to 12 hours a day, Workers organising in unions and voting in parties to legislate what was what changed this state of affairs. They do not want the same things though they may not be mortal enemies.

Companies want to make profit people want nice lives, health , free time and a future for their children generally.

Molly if economists some respect as they failed to guide the economy well and we ended up with a crash due to following their advice and judgement. It also possible to get conflicting advice from them

Remember when business decided and we had dark satanic mills where children a syoung as 4 worked for 10-20 % of the adult wage for up to 12 hours a day, Workers organising in unions and voting in parties to legislate what was what changed this state of affairs.

Thats an oversimplification – what about Saltaire, Port sunlight, Bourneville, Cresswell etc?

Plus the Factories and mines acts predated organised labour by a good stretch!

Not sure what your point is Junkyard.

Thats an oversimplification – what about Saltaire, Port sunlight, Bourneville, Cresswell etc?

That is cheery picking the outliers it is not typical and we both know this.

Plus the Factories and mines acts predated organised labour by a good stretch

Quite possibly because it was illegal to be in a union until 1867 8)

Molly you explained yourself why business and workers need different things so why did you ask?

I explained why business owners and the workers WANT different things, but they both NEED the same thing. They both need the business to succeed.

In other words, businesses mostly are people. And most people, either directly or indirectly are business.

Here’s a thought. 97% of Scots have registered to vote. If 97% of UK citizens registered to vote in the general elections, the Tories wouldn’t stand a chance I reckon.

I tend to agree that those who do not vote are more likely to vote left wing but i am not sure that it is not a guess /wishful thinking

PEDANTRY – it is 97 % of the people in scotland eligible to vote who have registered not 97% of scots but I know what you meant.

Re need and want you are just replacing the word – the business needs to make money and we need to have protection.

I dont think a business needs a work life balance or sick leave or a holiday or time off to go to the doctors or decent heath care or brilliant education for their children ..the list goes on.
people are not business and business is not people.

some real world example how about
Tobacco companies do not need restriction on smoking, advertising, age etc but people might.
Same with food and why they are reluctant to have any healthy labelling mandatory on food in supermarkets- it is because what people/society want and what they want are not the same things.
They dont need to worry about horse meat in lasagne either but we might need to know.
Its not hard to think of examples where people and companies wants/needs are not the same and polar opposites

We are not mortal enemies and it is rarely in a employees interest for the company to fail but that fact does not mean our needs are the same.

edit: too slow and not interesting enough.

I do wonder how many of that 97% are voters, and how many are TJ sitting in his living room surrounded by crates of proxy/postal forms 😀

😆

I can see the headlines: “Man arrested for pretending to be 3 million other people”, in his defence he was heard to mutter the word “Edinburgh?”

Aw c’mon, TJ can’t defend himself on here.

Could you imagine the tag team TJ and bencooper would have made on this thread?

Curious last tweet from the Murdoch

I wonder when/if he’ll decide to come out one way or the other. Whenever it’ll sell the most papers I suspect.

Could you imagine the tag team TJ and bencooper would have made on this thread?

😆

Re need and want you are just replacing the word

There’s a pretty major difference between those two words!

A business can only give so much to its employees otherwise it’s not profitable, and runs out of money. Cf American car companies who spend more on benefits for ex employees than on running their business.

A business needs a certain level of profitability, but the owners and share holders will always want more.

ninfan – Member
…Thats an oversimplification – what about Saltaire, Port sunlight, Bourneville, Cresswell etc?…

Raises an interesting comparison.

Lord Lever of Port Sunlight fame purchased the islands of Lewis and Harris and tried to introduce industry.

He gave up. He could not understand why the crofters preferred to continue an independent but subsistence life rather than become employees and earn more money and live in model housing.

molgrips – Member
A business can only give so much to its employees otherwise it’s not profitable, and runs out of money. Cf American car companies who spend more on benefits for ex employees than on running their business.

…because they did not put money aside as they went or ripped off the pension funds.

Raises an interesting comparison.

Lord Lever of Port Sunlight fame purchased the islands of Lewis and Harris and tried to introduce industry.

He gave up. He could not understand why the crofters preferred to continue an independent but subsistence life rather than become employees and earn more money and live in model housing.

Yes, but what happened next?

He offered the freehold ownership of the entire island of Lewis to its inhabitants, and they rejected it, not wanting to take the risk of true independence without the security of a benevolent master who would underwrite them if their fortunes should turn…

History eh… 😉

Could you imagine the tag team TJ and bencooper would have made on this thread?

proper LOL…