[Closed] Osborne. How useless is he, then?

teamhurtmore - Member
This thread merely confirms pre-determined prejudices and leads to a tired and pointless debate

... thought it might...

double post

I can't really see how this can be done, but assuming that it can be, and the competition is more open then the people who get to the top will still be the most ambitious and the most willing to put their needs above others.
Sure they've got there by merit of their own wit, but that won't make them any more pleasant leaders

That may be so, but the current situation, perceived or otherwise is that only the wealthy are getting to these positions of power and are perverting the system towards their own aims.

And its not all about leaders, political, or business. I don't understand why anyone other than those who are wealthy and/or privileged wouldn't want to find out.

When the playing field has been levelled and everyone is given the same access to nutrition, education etc, those at the top will be berated because they were born with better genes or more intelligent etc. Fairness is arbitrary.

To think that all those at the top had better genes or were more intelligent, then you certainly aren't in the category you perceive them to be.

Those at the top will be berated for holding the rest back.

those at the top will be berated because they were born with better genes

How will you determine that? Craniometry?

To think that all those at the top had better genes or were more intelligent, then you certainly aren't in the category you perceive them to be.

Duh I think you misunderstood my statement. Or are you just making an ad hominem attack because you haven't actually got anything concrete to counter with?

How will you determine that? Craniometry?

It is implied in the anti privilege argument, (which is that leaders should be there on merit only not just social or background advantage). So when we have a level playing field we can assume that those at the top are there on merit only, yes?

So when people get to the top on merit only then those at the bottom will complain that those at the top were born "more intelligent" and "it isn't fair, why can't I be in charge just because I was born with a learning difficulty". etc etc.

He is known as the submarine by civil servants as he rarely surfaces. He has no growth policies, which is why privatising the NHS is so important - if you can't grow existing economic activity in the private sector, create something new they can do. And the latter is much easier when there has been years of investment and training by the public sector. It the same story with academies - it isn't about academic freedom, it is about legal, IT, catering and accountancy firms getting more business.

He has no growth policies,

thats not entirely true i think weve sold a fair bit of democracy repression equipment to bahrain

Personally I love the fact there's a historian running the finances of this country.

You'd think with that background he could look back and say "let's see what's worked and what's failed in the past..."

Duh I think you misunderstood my statement. Or are you just making an ad hominem attack because you haven't actually got anything concrete to counter with?

There's nothing to counter. It was a dumb statement. Simple as.

So when people get to the top on merit only then those at the bottom will complain that those at the top were born "more intelligent" and "it isn't fair, why can't I be in charge just because I was born with a learning difficulty". etc etc.

Duh, happy with the current scenario?

 

There's nothing to counter. It was a dumb statement. Simple as.

Let me see. You think I was saying that current leaders arrived where they are on merit yes?

Personally I love the fact there's a historian running the finances of this country.

Well NuLab wanted an ex-postie to do the job 🙂

It the same story with academies - it isn't about academic freedom, it is about legal, IT, catering and accountancy firms getting more business.

That scares me, primarily because it's slipping under the radar which is tracking the great ship NHS.

Well NuLab wanted an ex-postie to do the job

😆

Well at least chances are he would've got there by being capable, not the PM's public school mate. 😉

being capable

That could have been a problem.

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member
Personally I love the fact there's a historian running the finances of this country.

Getting a 2:1 in Modern History doesn't make him a historian.

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member
Personally I love the fact there[s]'s[/s]WAS a historian running the finances of this country.

You'd think with that background he could have looked back and say "let's see what's worked and what's failed in the past..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Brown

😉

I have a vague dislike for the whole concept of meritocracy in the first place that I can't quite put my finger on.
But basically it's something along the lines of judging the worth of a human on their IQ, and by extension defining people which don't rank on this education scale as being of less merit is about as helpful as judging someone's merit on the size of their breasts.

Getting a 2:1 in Modern History doesn't make him a historian.

OK, how about a history graduate? 😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Brown

I didn't need to see that smile again.

*shudders*

Sorry, Pimpy, truly I am! 🙂 I'll have my therapist give you a call, OK?

judging the worth of a human on their IQ

Whether or not IQ tests are an accurate measure of intelligence is open to debate. It is difficult to define exactly what constitutes intelligence; it may be the case that IQ scores represent a very specific type of intelligence.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient ]iq measures how accustomed to the western world[/url]

Under the last government we had 5 Defence Secretaries in 4yrs, the last being the thoroughly decent but hardly qualified Bob Ainsworth, former sheet metal worker. Nobody liked to point that out because its a bit snobbish but there you are.

Seeing as the thread has moved onto social mobility and the lack thereof, maybe those yelling how much they dont like the country being run by toffs could explain to us why we shouldnt bring back grammar schools? Can we have one in Haringey please?

IanMunro - Member
I have a vague dislike for the whole concept of meritocracy in the first place that I can't quite put my finger on.
But basically it's something along the lines of judging the worth of a human on their IQ

No that isnt a meritocracy. Hard work, imagination, drive, maybe a bit of toughness will do wonders. As will having a stable family life.

As I said I can't quite but my finger on it, but something doesn't quite sit right with the assumption that one arbitrary set of metrics defines or diminishes a persons worth in society.

Seeing as the thread has moved onto social mobility and the lack thereof, maybe those yelling how much they dont like the country being run by toffs could explain to us why we shouldnt bring back grammar schools? Can we have one in Haringey please?

Because they reduce opportunity and social mobility?

I simply want the best person for the job not have appointees by cronyism

I'm glad I come to STW. I never knew until today that the reason I got on a bit was down to all those discreet connections my father cultivated at the bar of the Perth City British Legion.

dont like the country being run by toffs

"Toffs" aren't the problem - it's the cronyism that allows health reform to be written by management consultants and railways to be run by accountants.

"Toffs" aren't the problem - it's the cronyism that allows health reform to be written by management consultants and railways to be run by accountants.

Thats a different argument, and one that might have something to it. But if you read through the thread, the problem for the haters (who're gonna hate) is that they dont like posh people, full stop.

No mcboo - the what I and others dislike is cronyism meaning that we get people like Osbourne in positions of power and influence based on who they know not what they know. He is not there on merit - he is there because he is Camerons crony

You could actually read what people are posting.

they dont like posh people, full stop

I don't really think of the incumbent elite as "posh" - monied, certainly - but not posh.

The genuinely "posh" are usually living in a state of picturesque disrepair, baffled by the modern world.

You can't buy it. 8)

The genuinely "posh" are usually living in a state of picturesque disrepair, baffled by the modern world.

This is true

I'm glad I come to STW. I never knew until today that the reason I got on a bit was down to all those discreet connections my father cultivated at the bar of the Perth City British Legion.

Just think how different your life could have been if at eleven years old you had failed an exam, and therefore been consigned to a second class education.

TJ since when did any chancellor get there on merit.
They get there as an MP, they are voted for and then the bunch in power work out who gets what job, there is no qualifying degree for any government job.
look at what the last bunch of ****s did to defense the economy etc etc, and then ask yourself why you bother to vote as voting gets one group after the next, and not one is qualified for shit in this life.

Didn't the last government pump money into defense, health and education?

The one thing that amuses me in this whole debate is none of you get it,
it's about politics, anyone can get in to politics and do what they like, look at the BNP, if you feel strongly enough get involved join the party you feel most aligned to and get out there.
I just think they are all crap and we get what we deserve as a lazy country that just wants another tax break or little treat to make our lives a little easier for a little while.

I don't really think of the incumbent elite as "posh" - monied, certainly - but not posh.

The genuinely "posh" are usually living in a state of picturesque disrepair, baffled by the modern world.

You can't buy it.

[img] [/img]

😀

Sorry, Pimpy, truly I am! I'll have my therapist give you a call, OK?

It concerns me that that you have a therapist. 😉

Just think how different your life could have been if at eleven years old you had failed an exam, and therefore been consigned to a second class education.

I did get a second class education. I went to a crap British comprehensive.

mcboo +1

[img] [/img]

secondary modern / grammar schools are not a good system - they entrench priviledge and reduce mobility.

I had a great education - I went to a great true comprehensive

PimpJ yes the last govt did and how much of it was wasted, we have two aircraft carriers sat idle, a £12bn bill for a failed NHS computer system, the list is endless and one government takes over from the last and just keeps making a mess of it all, because they are all voted for and none of them is qualified for anything, particularly as there seems to be a new political elite from all parties that simply goes to Uni then joins a party and becomes an MP having never lived in the real world.

The money to the NHS was not wasted. Huge improvements in care, reductions in waiting times etc etc. Beat labour with the stick of their mistakes by all means but the money that went into the NHS made huge and obvious improvements

Tj, how did Gordon Brown become PM if not through deals with mates?

Before the last election I watched the live debates, one was for the prospective chancellors, the opening question was 'What qualities will you bring to the job?'
Unfortunately IMO none answered with I have a degree in accountancy or economics or anything vaguely qualifying them for the job. As Sancho says it politics, but the collective 'we' put them there.

T

my education was garbage TJ.
crumbling old school useless teachers dumb classmates, just dumbed down so and no inspiration.
same with Uni, but that was beyond a joke as I had a bunch of lecturers who were just collecting their wage and filling time until retirement, I hated them and the dumb idiots on the course.

I simply want the best person for the job not have appointees by cronyism

Hilary Benn - Son of millionaire Tony Benn, Grandson of William Wedgwood Benn, 1st Viscount Stansgate, father of Emily Benn, Parliamentary candidate for East Worthing and Shoreham at the 2010 Election?

I did get a second class education. I went to a crap British comprehensive.

You have no idea the advantage a comprehensive gave you over not making it to a grammar school.

a new political elite from all parties that simply goes to Uni then joins a party and becomes an MP having never lived in the real world.

Thats the real problem, very few of them have ever experienced, normal hardships, having to worry about making ends meet, worrying about being made unemployed going through the humiliation of the job centre. But be in no doubt that the torries are far far further removed from normal life than even new labour.

Thats a bad school nothing to do with the system.

I went to a local comprehensive on the south side of glasgow. Main catchment areas were the local schemes ( darnley Arden and Carnwadric). Enthusiastic motivated teachers, fantastic facilities, modern buildings, swimming pool, sports hall and 2 gyms, modern language labs for language teaching etc etc. Really could not have been bettered for a well rounded education.

I like to beat all parties with their mistakes. but the last government had some howlers, this current lot havent done anything on that scale, yet.
though they are making a continued mess of the aircraft carriers. and wasting money on all sorts of projects.
but the whirlwind of PFI will bankrupt the NHS in about ten years. and then private money will be needed again, the privatisation of the NHS that people cry about started with PFI and we will need to remember that when legal action starts flying about between the private companies who own all the new hospitals and the govt who cant afford it anymore.

El-bent - Member

But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.
your interpretation of what I said tells it own story. If someone gets into these positions via academic ability and not through wealth and connections, then they deserve to be there.

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

El-bent, there is no need to selective quote me, I totally agree with you. You have put an interpretation on one half of what I said??

But disappointing that after a long ride I come back and no-one (esp TJ) has come up with a job that is won 100% on meritocracy. Perhaps an easier question, how many MPs in any party are there purely on the basis of ability? Do Labour MPs use their connections? Notice the cliques in any party?

Ian - meritocracy is an interesting one isn't it. Put the question to most people, "should XXX be determined by meritocracy alone?" and the vast majority will say, "Yes, of course, that is only fair". But is it? Meritocracy merely selects on the basis of who has been lucky in nature's random distribution of talents. So one person is cleverer than another, or can run the 100m faster than another, or can play the violin better than the other? Is that purely down to them - no, it is also affected by life's patterns of luck. So what is fair about that? (We are all dealt different cards with some trump cards and some losers. Its our job to play the hand as best we can as others above have demonstrated.)

But then what would you want to do with scarce resources like the best education, the best athletics training, the opportunity to play a stradivarius. Give it to the lucky ones or merely distribute to everyone on a totally random basis. Would that be a good use of the stradivarius? No easy answers, these questions have exercised the greatest minds without solution!!!

 

I'm off for a ride, I enjoy these debates 🙂

As Sancho says it politics, but the collective 'we' put them there.

Not really, we don't get to vote for who we want, we get to vote for the candidates the parties put in front of us, it's basically a conjurer's trick, its made to look all open and representative, but in reality its a closed system.

Tj I went to a state grammar school in the days of the 11 plus and would love to see them back, pupils and teachers are better suited to different types of pupils and teachers.

Regards nhs, mother paid 11k for a knee op she had waited 2 years for to be told she had been took off the list, she died in hospital because two consultants couldn't talk to each other and neither could tell their understudies what was going on. Father died in hospital of multiple cancers left diagnosed until a district nurse refused to take anymore blood cos he needed a transfusion from weeing blood for months. I myself got a knee op pretty quickly... I am mates with a senior manager! Sorry but from a punters perspective the nhs still needs a lot of work.

Enjoy Sancho its nice out there!!! Last few rides, no need for winter gloves. Almost time for no overshoes!!

[i]a job that is won 100% on meritocracy.[/i]

Sports stars perhaps?

...But then we moan about how much they are paid for being the best performers in their chosen field...

Tj sounds like you had a good school, mine didn't have a swimming pool ;(

Msp, we still get to vote for what we get offered. Eg if Tony Blair had been Tory I still wouldn't have voted for him. We may only get to vote for the selected but we get to not vote for them also.

Yeh crikey, that's a good one, but not perfect. When I played a lot of rugby, access/selection to county/national/club teams also had a large element of "who you knew" . If the forwards coach represented a school or uni, guess who made up the front row?

Tj I went to a state grammar school in the days of the 11 plus and would love to see them back, pupils and teachers are better suited to different types of pupils and teachers.

So your not really in a position to comment on those who are disadvantaged by education in a singular point in life, your experience is as one of the lucky ones.

teamhurtmore. Most public servants as the selection procedures are open and objective. Nurses, teachers to name but two types.

Msp As is anyone who had a good education.

Interesting TJ, but not my experience in teaching - lots of hiring of mates, same Uni colleagues etc.

And perfectly normal human behaviour really. Two identical candidates - one you know well, the other you don't. Who are you most likely to select? Everyone will bring some bias to any selection process. Read a CV and there may be something you/I doesn't like. Could be random, but always based on perceptions. There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

At least they make an attempt - I bet you were not teaching in the state schools were you?

Friendships have to be declared in the selection process. Selection for interview is done blind with no names on the applications and scored off objective marking schedules. At interview friendships and family relationships should be declared and again its done as objectively as possible using the same set of questions for everyone.

Not based on who you know which is the crucial thing

There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

Exactly.

This has turned into another TJ thread, a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

OK - TJ thanks, that is a good, interesting example.

a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

so your experience of teaching was not in the public sector then? There has been a huge drive to make public sector appointments as objective as possible

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

Go on, wade in.

clueless and thick

3bikeman - Member

given Thatcher destroyed manufacturing we dont have any manufacturing

Total myth- UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war. No idea why some people are so keen to do this country down.

When did he go to eton?

St Pauls, then Oxford.

NW and Goatster - since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate? 😉

Good point 😉

since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate?

Eton, St Pauls - it's irrelevant really, ...he's still as thick as sh*t 🙂

Britain is particularly good at design and manufacture, I hope you are right 'Northwind' - However as an engineer my experience is that manufacturing has reduced over the years - I wont argue the point, because if your right, manufacturing will help exports and therefore increase the GDP - I am not doing the country down only the shortsitedness of governments in the past - long live british manufacturing including 'Hope' ace MTB parts!!!

Tj you can't really compare Scotland's education system to the rest of the UK as its light years ahead of the crappy system we have in England and Wales. My wife having gone through the Scottish system and myself through the comprehensive experiment in the 80's I know which one I'd rather be educated by.

UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war.

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80's and 90's, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

Fattatlasses - you may be correct to attack Osborne's policies but to simply say that he is as thick as....does not really need further comment!!

Why not go to the Eton College website and have a little browse at their entry (albeit scholarship) papers for boys ages 12 ( http://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx) and then compare with a normal GSCE for pupils aged 16? Then go and have a look at St Paul's website and look at their entry policy ( http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/admissions) - TJ will love the blind entry policy - look at the specific entry for pupils from state schools and look at the schools stated vision ( http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/about-st-pauls/vision)

Then repeat

Eton, St Pauls - it's irrelevant really, ...he's still as thick as sh*t

So teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?

fattatlasses - Member

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80's and 90's, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

OECD shows an increase in manufacturing by value added. Office of National Statistics, Pricewaterhousecooper, and CIPS all agree.

What we see is a relative decline but an absolute rise. Just had a quick google out of curiosity and the reports on the decline of manufacturing that I looked at were without exception using % of GDP as their metric. But o'course that's wrong- if other sectors outgrow manufacturing, then the % of GDP declines.