UPDATED | Orange Bikes Calls In Administrators

LOL i’ve never once said they’re shit.

Admittedly the one i tried (i think it was a Five) i really didn’t like. But i’ve not mentioned that previously either in this thread or anywhere else.

Why are they going under then?

If they’re all this, all that, singing, dancing etc. but still they’re calling in the administrator

That’s a complex question that none of us can answer because we don’t have access to their accountant etc.

Nah, it’s because their bikes have that old fashion two wheels tech (I know right! TWO WHEELS! GET OUTTA HERE!) and not the latest and greatest child labour built whiz bang thing you read on pinkbike that makes the ride feel “stuck to the ground” and “plush” that’ll make your gopro videos of you riding around in the Tesco car park super epic innit.

Santa Cruz look almost exactly the same now as they did 10 years ago. Look at a 2014 5010 or Nomad…

Well, they look the same if you’re not a bike rider but if you even have a casual interest in bikes you’d be able to see plenty of obvious differences immediately and if you’re a bike nerd, you’ll spot the subtle differences, like HA , STA…

They are about  as ‘exactly the same’ as a shire horse and a Shetland pony. :D

They did at the end of April 2022, but they also had net current assets, had made more revenue than the year before, and had made a decent profit. Could have all gone tits up since then but they looked in pretty robust health at the time of their last accounts.

It doesn’t take much for the liquidity to suddenly go to shit and you have no cash to pay your bills or pay for supplies to make your stock into final product. The market for 50 quid dropper post levers and 4000 quid handbuilt frames probably has a lot of crossover..

@benpinnick out of interest, what changes did Bird make to go global? Are you shipping directly into the EU instead of building the bikes here and then shipping again?

As a bird rider, i’m glad you guys are doing ok!

Well, they look the same if you’re not a bike rider but if you even have a casual interest in bikes you’d be able to see plenty of obvious differences immediately and if you’re a bike nerd, you’ll spot the subtle differences, like HA , STA…

They are about as ‘exactly the same’ as a shire horse and a Shetland pony.

Quote conveniently misses the bit where I mention being the same bar geometry etc. The suggestion seemed to be Orange had failed because they’re still making alloy single pivot bikes that look similar to what they did 10 years ago when SC were making VPP carbon/alloy bikes…. which they still do.

Maybe the current market is the same for all manufactures.  Most seem to be offloading stock at discount currently but maybe some have better cash reserves to take that hit?

I do wonder how many (apologies) analogue bikes are being sold and if the market has dropped out generally for them?  Have all the early adopters jumped on eBikes now and they are proving tough to shift, or are potential customers waiting for greater discounts before biting or event the next round of reach to emerge?  Also, perhaps now we are at incremental gains rear on year.  Half a degree head angle adjustment can be achieved with offset headset cups, most bikes have adjustable settings for the suspension so what is the next great thing that is going to kick start the sales again?  Maybe more people are just making do with what they have, tweaking it and looking after it and extending its use.  It must be very difficult trying to predict how the market will look for the next eighteen/twenty-four months.  I see a good deal of consolidation coming for manufacturers, either through strategy or necessity.

Quote conveniently misses the bit where I mention being the same bar geometry etc.

Nope – your whole quote:

Treks and Santa Cruz look almost exactly the same now as they did 10 years ago. Look at a 2014 5010 or Nomad… I honestly couldn’t tell you whether it was a 2014 bike or a 2024 bike save for some being obviously longer/slacker. Exactly the same as Orange…

But if this is what you meant, fair enough:

The suggestion seemed to be Orange had failed because they’re still making alloy single pivot bikes that look similar to what they did 10 years ago when SC were making VPP carbon/alloy bikes…. which they still do.

@Ewan it was a number of things:

– Started working with online youtube type channels overseas (something we never did before).
– Implemented a full range of currency payment options so everything is priced locally in our major markets
– Implemented Duty and VAT pre-payments so customers just get a single bill from us no border charges
– Implemented electronic customs docs so that our stuff is just uploaded to the customs platform no messing about meaning we’re not crippled with customs paperwork as this grows
– Negotiated better shipping rates so now our EU shipping is roughly what it was pre-brexit including the custom fees.

Each one not massive, but turns that bike company in awkward brexit-land into a viable option for EU customers where we’d been quite strong pre-brexit, as well as new marketing opportunities in the US & Canada. Where there’s only half a dozen of you, you can only do so much but it works. Overseas is now more than half our business.

Perhaps it’s not really to do with the bikes, and is more about their image. Maybe Santa Cruz are just more desirable, and Orange don’t have whatever it is.
Bike choice is often ineffable.

Sunset cycles say questions should be answered this time next week and have some insane paint job Patriot posted on their facebook: https://fb.watch/px9d7MaDd4/.

Administration to clear up the debts and selling to a pre-arranged buyer?

Well, they look the same if you’re not a bike rider but if you even have a casual interest in bikes you’d be able to see plenty of obvious differences immediately and if you’re a bike nerd, you’ll spot the subtle differences, like HA , STA…

They are about as ‘exactly the same’ as a shire horse and a Shetland pony.

Same as Orange then, and that was the point as it had been suggested they had not moved with the times.

Seems strange to accuse Orange of lack of innovation when I can’t see any great advancements in any manufacturers bikes (outside forks/shocks) since it all went long, low and slack ages ago. Maybe we’ve reached peak geometry where the sweet spot(s) have been found?

and have some insane paint job Patriot posted on their facebook:

Orange used to have a range of lovely paint jobs along those lines. My Mrs had a black cherry Five that was really nice, her mate had (iirc) “disco blue”. There was at least one other option at the time too. Cost a little extra but they were worth it. Eventually killed off for being too expensive (tried to get another frame resprayed in the black cherry)

I reckon a big part of trouble selling the FS bikes to punters is that they’ve got to convince them that 99% of the industry is wrong, and single pivot is actually the best. That’s a tough sell, and they really don’t seem to be going for it these days (even if the message is just aimed at a particular type of user)

I happen to think my Alpine Evo rides better than my previous carbon Spectral, which had many bearings and much linkage. I don’t think a single pivot is any kind of handicap in terms of speed. Maybe it has a different feel if you really concentrate or you’re chasing tenths. The geo is undoubtedly bang up to date. You’re talking a 495mm reach, 63 degree head angle and a near 1300mm wheelbase on 650b wheels. The bike is faster than I am and climbs better than the Spectral thanks to longer chainstays. If we’re going down the ‘it looks the same as they did ten years ago’ route. They don’t. Yes, the single pivot and chonky swingarm is a uniquely recognisable setup, but short of having a common(ish) silhouette, new Oranges look nowt like those from ten years ago. Nor do bikes from any other manufacturers. Geo has moved on. They’ve never bowed to industry fashion for more linkages and more pivots and more this and more that. And anyway, let’s suppose that a single pivot is somehow inferior to a six-bar reverse high pivot pull shock rose jointed bike with adjustable everything. What the hell is wrong with just wanting to support a British company that makes the damn things here? Plenty of companies out there are pretending to be British but then have everything made in a far eastern megafactory. I’ve had many bikes in my time, from Giant, Specialized, Canyon, Trek, Cube and Marin and once upon a time a Raleigh too. Not one of them was as special to me as my Orange is. I feel like mass produced stuff is disposable. My Orange is different. I feel like it was crafted for me rather than churned off a production line in the far east and crammed into a shipping container. The world will be a slightly less sparkly place without Orange Bikes in it.

*Disclaimer; I may have quaffed several strong Vocation stouts while typing this. I will miss Orange if they disapper. Genuinely.

They need to just take a step back and go back to the jazzy paint jobs they offered the simplistic designs/looks of the last stage 6 evo (with split bar rear end) and just stick to a basic 120/140/160 bike and hardtails and maybe one ebike (shit) ….

the glory days of orange could come back they need to just not over complicate it – some of the early bikes were so cool with a choice of nice paint jobs and even upto 2016 with thr stage6 evo they looked industrial but nice and they sold well…..

as I said before the introduction of e-bikes (shit) has lost a core sales market for Orange as a brand the die hard northern age bracket that would generally buy them have mostly all shifted to e-bikes (shit) … and a younger generation have no interest and the fact they can get the latest snazzy carbon nukeproofs etc for less… if they can start selling reasonably priced alloy frames/full bikes again and run with the heritage/glory days there is still a market for them albeit not as big as it once was but it’s there still

In terms of bike frame innovation, what can you do? Materials – steel, alloy, ti, carbon and everyone is doing that already. Suspension design – theres some whack job ideas but single pivot and something linkage driven, similar to what we had in the late 90s.

The big advances in recent years seem to have been geometry based. If you took a bike from 10 years ago, left the suspension, drivetrain etc as it was back then but gave it modern geometry 99% of riders wouldn’t know they were on 10 year old tech for drivetrains, frame material or suspension.

Regarding what happened with Orange, nobody on here knows but my guess is their complicated range put potential buyers off. I’m an Orange fan having bought my first one over 20 years ago and have pretty much had one in the garage ever since but looking at today’s range, I’ve no idea what I’d buy as they had multiple bikes in the same discipline. Their site split bikes into Enduro, downhill etc didn’t it and it had loads of options in each. Said it elsewhere in the thread but if it were me, that range needs to be massively simplified. If you’re going to build linkage driven single pivot bikes, do it. Or stick with “real” single pivots instead of having two bikes seemingly the same, one with a linkage, one without. Referencing another UK company but Cotic seem to do this right. Two or three full bouncers to cover most needs and a few complimentary hardtails. Then the gravel bikes etc. It only needs to be that simple! Oh, and scrap any idea of an 8.5 grand hardtail ebike…

Anyway, positive sounds hopefully from Orange.

I think Orange could do with a little bit of an image refresh, I’m not convinced their promo vid where they showed their frames being straightened with a big pole and a hammer did them much favours, it might well be what they and many others are doing but when you’re competitors are pushing carbon and 3D printing and wind tunnels it makes them look very stoneage.

They also need to have words with whoevever thought this monstrosity should be seen by the general public.

the glory days of orange could come back they need to just not over complicate it

I agree the market could come back around to them if they can make the bikes a bit more affordable.

I think a lot of people are generally looking for a bit more simplicity and appreciating ride feel more – and orange deliver on those for sure.

‘ promo vid where they showed their frames being straightened with a big pole and a hammer’   Was that the Guy Martin one? Well, I dunno, for me that vid demonstrates that aluminium can be much more forgiving than carbon, swingarm isn’t quite straight, just give it to old Burt with his club hammer

I still cant help think that the 2016 frames that showed seat stay and brace problems and the bigger rise of Faceache groups had some looking elsewhere for frames and bikes . Also so the pricing seemed to take a larger upturn around this time. I know Orange always did it but ordering some colours incured the extra £100 and forgive me if im wrong but when friends ordered bikes  and added the Hope headset and other parts upgrade the oem parts  (sram brakes and cane creek headsets ) were not deducted from the final pricing or substitued .   The rise of cheap Nukeproof frames ment they became more the norm when out and about, im sorry to say I know three lads from Halifax that all did this  and all regretted it and when looking back towards Orange one jumped on a frame at £2600  the other two went elsewhere at more boutique brands that were pennies off Oranges price .   I dont think  single pivot designs is the problem  in some cases its much more of a blessing than maybe the infinity  links in terms of maintainace and hastle free riding .  Lets be fair by bet is %75 of riders on here cant or wouldnt be able to push  any mtb to near its limits and would have fun on most full sus bikes including a single pivot .  I think Orange just lost its way a few years back and have tried to claw back their betters days and failed .

I would hope they sort this and return  stronger with less products and just well priced bikes and well built  frames if NEON COLOURS  !! at no extra cost

All of that and not the switch hardtail at £3.5k with SLX. It looks great but really?

Each one not massive, but turns that bike company in awkward brexit-land into a viable option for EU customers where we’d been quite strong pre-brexit, as well as new marketing opportunities in the US & Canada. Where there’s only half a dozen of you, you can only do so much but it works. Overseas is now more than half our business.

@benpinnick cheers for that – very interesting and i’m glad it’s working out!

I’m not convinced their promo vid where they showed their frames being straightened with a big pole and a hammer did them much favours

Standard process in any heat-treated Alu frame factory.

Standard process in any heat-treated Alu frame factory.

to the lay man it’s taking a, seemingly, high-tech piece of kit and using the most low-tech approach to make it straight (which problem looks like having to fix it to some people). Doesn’t look great – sometimes focusing on the precise end result is better than how you got there.

Yeah I agree and I get how it can look a bit low-tech to the layman. Same sort of impression made when you see carbon layups on the inner supports before they’re cured – messy lumpy bits of fabric that anyone can put together with a bit of practice. 

“I like sausages, I just don’t what to know how they’re made”.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/throwback-thursday-ben-cathros-2009-orange-225-prototype-bike-check.html

Just a bit of droolage for you 🤤🤤🤤

to the lay man it’s taking a, seemingly, high-tech piece of kit and using the most low-tech approach to make it straight (which problem looks like having to fix it to some people). Doesn’t look great – sometimes focusing on the precise end result is better than how you got there.

Aluminium has a high coefficent of thermal expansion. A weld will pull the frame around as it cools and contracts. I’d much rather they straighten that out before heat treatment than just ignoring it and shipping horribly aligned frames. I assume Intense did the latter with my Socom back in the day (my 224 Evo of the same era had no such problems).

They also need to have words with whoevever thought this monstrosity should be seen by the general public.

Apart from being an ebike, for an ebike that looks pretty nice to me.

Aluminium has a high coefficent of thermal expansion. A weld will pull the frame around as it cools and contracts. I’d much rather they straighten that out before heat treatment than just ignoring it and shipping horribly aligned frames. I assume Intense did the latter with my Socom back in the day (my 224 Evo of the same era had no such problems).

Yes… you’re not the lay man in question

Apart from being an ebike, for an ebike that looks pretty nice to me.

@jimmy that’s not an eBike…

Haha, so it’s not. 

I’ve been getting gradually more nostalgic about Orange, the recent goings on have reminded me that I really enjoyed my Five(s).
I’m out of touch though, so looking through the different specs; Stage 6 – 140mm travel, Switch 6 – 160mm travel… just another little thing they don’t seem to be on top of.

They also need to have words with whoevever thought this monstrosity should be seen by the general public.

So much nicer in pink :-)

My experience of Orange, was with the Alpine.  It rode really well, modern geo for the time, price was great.  Sadly, the quality was awful.  Welds looked untidy and I cracked 3 swing arms and 2 front triangles.  Orange did honour warranty, but when you compare to brands like Nicolai who also make hand built aluminum bikes, it’s like night and day.

I don’t think frame material is an issue for Orange carbon and aluminum both are relevant and have different benefits.  The folded nature of the frames requires a significant amount of welding though, and anecdotally, Orange do seem to suffer a lot of failures.

Single pivots might be good for ease of maintenance, but the suspension action under braking becomes inactive and that’s not a very desirable characteristic.  So many others have moved on to refine designs and offer them at a lower price point.

It’s tough for everyone, but Orange are now a high priced option in a very competitive market, with (in my opinion) a product that isn’t as good. I’m not sure what differentiates them positively anymore?  

It’s super sad for them and everyone connected with them, but beyond the geo changes, it appears nothing has changed but the price. 

 

The appeal of a single pivot bike always appealed to me, but when purchasing my last bike way back in 2017 the price differential between a orange and whyte bike was around 700-800 quid.

So bought the whyte but is not stopped me lusting after  a stage evo.

Tbh like a lot of other people the prices of bikes has become prohibitively expensive.

Perhaps a direct sales model might be the answer.

Often wondered if a tubed single pivot bike might be cheaper and less prone to frame failures?

The appeal of a single pivot bike always appealed to me, but when purchasing my last bike way back in 2017 the price differential between a orange and whyte bike was around 700-800 quid.

So bought the whyte but is not stopped me lusting after  a stage evo.

Tbh like a lot of other people the prices of bikes has become prohibitively expensive.

Perhaps a direct sales model might be the answer.

Often wondered if a tubed single pivot bike might be cheaper and less prone to frame failures?

Why are you all on about single pivot? My last orange was faux with a linkage…

“I’d rather have an *ugly* bike then have an ugly personality that revels in this like this is some faceless multinational going bust and a bunch of highly salaried millennials and gen-z’ers getting laid off.”

Bang on the money.

Still, unfortunately many are still happy to use their ££ spending where it  furthers the aims of  totalitarian regimes instead.

So bought the whyte but is not stopped me lusting after a stage evo.

What are you riding now? Some very affordable Stage Evos around at the mo.

I was out on mine for a few hours this morning, really great bike 👍