UPDATED | Orange Bikes Calls In Administrators

Trek Portland? Circa 2009 I think.

I have a trek crossrip from 2014, specifically marketed at the time as a drop barred bike for “going everywhere”.

EDIT:  To be fair, the Portland was more of an early disc brakes road bike, rather than a gravel bike, but basically at some point a marketeer coined the term “gravel bike” and all hell broke loose….

If a gravel bike is being ridden in a forest but no one from the marketing department is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Here and other places people are suggesting this is due to Orange’s bikes not being the latest thing that looks like a bits of squeezed out toothpaste blown up 100x size, made into carbon fiber and wheels strapped on.

I don’t think this is the case. I think they probably got screwed over by not being able to get finishing kit for their frames at the same prices Canyon etc does and having way too much stock of that expensive stuff when the market has slowed right now and all of the new versions of said stuff is coming out. I suspect they have tons and tons of stock for their hardtails because they had to order a lot to get any over covid and now no one can shift it.

It’s also worth noting that the fabricators for their UK made frames (owned by the same guy, who is family of one of the founders of Orange, who himself was family of the founder of the fabricators) has filed intention to appoint an administrator too.  (https://caseboard.io/cases/d3500fc8-df37-4989-b1c7-405c29ab78d0)  I guess both businesses have struggled. The fabricators probably aren’t making much money on anything they are building including Orange’s frames due to the cost increase in materials etc, then hurting because Orange aren’t selling enough to keep their machines busy and then Orange itself is sitting on stock it can’t get rid of because the market has slowed down so much.

I see so many jokes about how the bikes are ugly and that’s why they are struggling etc etc but man. This is two UK family owned businesses that have supported this hobby for 30+ years and that have employees that have to feed their kids that could potentially not survive. I own two Orange’s so maybe I’m a bit bias but I think I’d rather have an *ugly* bike then have an ugly personality that revels in this like this is some faceless multinational going bust and a bunch of highly salaried millennials and gen-z’ers getting laid off.

I see so many jokes about how the bikes are ugly and that’s why they are struggling etc etc but man.

The problem is, these ‘jokes’ are from customers who buy bikes… If the general public don’t like the looks of their bikes, that’s not the customers fault/issue. There’s literally hundreds upon hundreds of options in terms of bike buying and Orange have somehow lost their niche they used to have. Unless they find ‘something’ again, they’ll be in trouble and stay in trouble. It’s not harsh, it’s not unfair of the public, things that are not appealing simply don’t sell.

Look at companies like Hope, they get to charge ‘more’ because of customer service and looks… Irrespective of whether their kit is ‘better’ they’ve built something that is desirable to customers and backed up… That’s what orange need to get back. They need to work out what to do to make them stand-out to the buyers.

I think they probably got screwed over by not being able to get finishing kit for their frames at the same prices Canyon etc does and having way too much stock of that expensive stuff when the market has slowed right now and all of the new versions of said stuff is coming out. I suspect they have tons and tons of stock for their hardtails because they had to order a lot to get any over covid and now no one can shift it.

Some of that goes back to the original point of having too many models.

Clockwork came in two 29″ versions (differing by 10mm travel) and two 27.5″ versions. That’s 4 different sets of suspension forks and 2 different lots of tyres/wheels to be buying and keeping in stock.

Plus what weeksy says ^^.
I bought a new MTB recently and “I should support 2 UK family businesses because they mean well” was not a factor in my decision making.

The problem is, these ‘jokes’ are from customers who buy bikes

But are they? Are we sure that the people that spend time reading sites like this even ride bikes? 🙂
Do they even have time to do that between complaining about conflicting non-issues of plushness on kit that they’ll never own?

Look at companies like Hope, they get to charge ‘more’ because of customer service and looks…

I think there is some crossover between the people that buy Hope and Orange. Pretty sure there is a video of Hope staff bikes with a lot of Oranges. There are lots of people that would also say that Hope’s stuff is *ugly* too. I personally like the chunky/bling colours look of their stuff. Others might say the Hope colours look cheap to the unwashed masses and like the Chinese stuff “low income people” get off Amazon to bling out their tatty GT avalanche. Each to their own.

Anyhow Hope has ~5M quid in debt too: https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/02658410-hope-technology-ipco-limited

I bought a new MTB recently and “I should support 2 UK family businesses because they mean well” was not a factor in my decision making.

And that is up to you. No one should be morality policed into buying things they don’t want. But at the same time there is no reason to be a ghoulish asshole about it either. I’ve bought two bikes from Orange explicitly because I have enough cash and I’d prefer to buy from UK businesses and when it’s between my legs covered in mud I could give zero shits about it’s not looking like some carbon fiber thing made at the Gaint factory with some other brands sticker on it.

I think it’s worth chipping in here to say that the British bike market has all but collapsed. It limps on but is a fraction of what it was. People are spending on C2W still, but outside of that theres very little activity relatively speaking. What was a slump became freefall when CRC dumped £ms of stock on the market at below cost prices. Hell, I even bought a cubscout frame for Jnr; for £50! I could barely buy just the parts the frame comes with and ship the empty box around the world for that money.

That said, it’s a peculiarly British issue. Sales to the EU and US are strong and growing for us. They don’t seem to have fallen out of love with bikes like the Brits have. Yes they’re experiencing a major down turn for what the industry was like a few years ago, but not on the same scale. Bird made the ‘flip’ to being more internationally focussed around 8 months ago when it was clear the UK was in serious decline, and Im glad we did. If you didn’t or couldn’t or it just plain didn’t work, you’re going to be in serious hot water right now. What would I say were the reasons why the UK market is so bad compared to other markets that suffered the same Covid related issues?

1. The economy/cost of living. Ignore the ‘highest growth in the EU’ BS. It’s clear the EU, US and CAN customers are not holding onto their wallets like we are.
2. E Bikes. E bikes are not good for the long term bike market generally; Too expensive to make, too much depreciation, too much cost to run (where you could be spending it on blingy bits instead that helps keep your LBS’s head above water), too many bikes on longer term finance or high value C2W. Compounded by the likelihood Britain has converted to solely eBike riders more than any other market from what I see. Of course there is the flip-side of the maintenance value thats pouring into the LBS because of ebikes. I imagine thats what is keeping them afloat right now.
3. The Weather. Weve had the worst weather for the last however many months I can remember. The bike business is very weather dependent. 6 months of rain will mean 6 bad months for bike sales. We’ve had 6 months of bad weather.
4. Brexit, but thats only a compounding factor now. Yes its a PITA, yes it adds costs sending to the EU but by now the kinks are mostly worked out and a new way of doing this is established. Certainly for the bike industry it has had few (if any) real upsides. Even the new 0% tariff breaks announced a couple of years ago was basically a lie. I mean it wasn’t technically a lie, they did cut some import tariffs to 0% under the guise of helping us out, but when the cuts came out they were obscure and virtually meaningless. It was all bluster and very little substance.

Weirdly Brexit could have been ok/positive for Orange as one of the few larger UK bike companies able to ship into the EU tariff free – competitors shipping in far eastern bikes warehoused in the EU shipping to the UK now face tariffs they don’t, but the other way could have worked for them with judicious component choices. It also increased certain material costs but nothing like Covid’s effect, not even close.

I think the biggest long term issue Brexit will cause is that very little of the EU’s investment programs seem to have been replaced. Some generous capital allowances have come out, but that only helps if you have the cash to spend up front or want to place it on finance. E.G. its helpful for the big guys. The grants/funds that helped the little guy are drying up fast.

Just my tuppence worth.

I think it’s worth chipping in here to say that the British bike market has all but collapsed. It limps on but is a fraction of what it was.

The British bike market is a weird niche anyway compared to the rest of Europe. Very little in the way of utility cycling (London excluded) and instead mostly aimed at affluent middle class leisure / enthusiast riders, a high focus on performance and sport. But even people like that don’t (usually…) have the disposable income to be buying new bikes at £4000+ apiece every year.

And underneath that of course is the likes of Decathlon and Halfords flogging hundreds of BSOs to people who don’t care about any aspect of “cycling”, probably couldn’t even tell you what brand they’re riding but they’ve bought something cheap to ride to school/uni/work on.

All the comments saying support Orange they’re a British brand, look after our home industry, forefront of the sport etc but cba’ed to stump up for a subscription here – hypocritical much?

@benpinnick – good to have some industry knowledge about things, thanks for posting.

I think the first bike was developed in German about 1817, whereas tar sealing of “macadam” surfaces didn’t start until the 1820s. But stone paved roads have been around a lot longer, back to Roman times at least, so gravel riding did not necessarily originate from the birth of the bicycle.

Ok I’ve learnt something. I had googled the invention of tarmac which is 20th century. However on further reading I think my point still stands. Although roads may have been paved before this they would have been far from smooth. Tar sealing of roads was rare in the 19th century, see the quote below. In the 1890s cycling boom, when the safety bike was widely available, the cycling would have been something like what we now call gravel.

Tar-grouted macadam was in use well before 1900 and involved scarifying the surface of an existing macadam pavement, spreading tar and re-compacting. Although the use of tar in road construction was known in the 19th century, it was little used and was not introduced on a large scale until the motorcar arrived on the scene in the early 20th century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmacadam#:~:text=Tarmacadam%20is%20a%20road%20surfacing,Edgar%20Purnell%20Hooley%20in%201902.

All the comments saying support Orange they’re a British brand, look after our home industry, forefront of the sport etc but cba’ed to stump up for a subscription here – hypocritical much?

Ah, so it’s all or nothing? You either buy something from every single company in the UK or you aren’t supporting the home crowd. It’s not like supporting a few companies in the UK market that pay for ads, provide review items etc to the press in the country might be a good thing even if you don’t directly pay into said press.

(If you’re having trouble working this out: If the local industry disappears the local press for that industry will also disappear. Pinkbike, some random American on youtube can review the latest SRAM or Shimano components just a well as anyone in the UK could).

Glad to hear Bird are (presumably) in a relatively secure position Ben.

I was gonna ask when you replied on one of these threads before, but it’s a delicate matter obvs.

Ah, so it’s all or nothing? 

Obviously not but there’s a definite degree in hypocrisy using but not financially supporting the forum whilst banging on with a buy British mantra.

Mrs K and I currently have three hand built custom British bikes (properly hand built, welded up in Croydon) as well as a Brompton and there’s two other British hand built ones which we’ve moved on, a Dolan track bike of my wife’s and some Ribbles all of which would be as British as some orange stuff and a variety of hope components and a subscription here so you’ve picked the wrong target.

Never fancied and orange as they had a rep for cracking and that alone just immediately shunted them off my list, much like lappierre

(If you’re having trouble working this out: If the local industry disappears the local press for that industry will also disappear…)

Depends on what ‘local’ means to you; Mountain biking exists outside of Yorkshire, as does the journalism covering it. Might be a stretch for some, but it migrated there from further South. But having a pop about buying local and then using a ‘local’ site for free is a bit rich. Support your local journo, eh?
Perhaps, as I’ve mentioned several times in this thread, there are other companies to support who manufacturer genuine UK handbuilt bikes. Alternatively, support other UK based bike companies if you don’t have deep enough pockets for a UK made bike but want to help the economy – locally and nationally. Or just buy any bike from a shop and continue to use them.
Whichever way, the jingoism around certain brands is effing tiresome after 35 years of it.

Glad to hear Bird are (presumably) in a relatively secure position Ben.

Had we not made the changes we did to improve the overseas business I suspect wed have suffered the same fate; but as it is Im sat here with a pile of bikes/frames that need shipping labels to wing their way around the world, and very little to ship to the UK. C’est la vie I guess – you have to move with the times.

very little to ship to the UK

Any thoughts on concepts like removing/reducing VAT on bicycles, as with the EU? (I think Portugal are down to 6% VAT for the bike industry)?

I’d love an Orange – more out of they have been around donkey’s years, and the single pivot suspension makes alot of sense for British slop, especially last 6 months. Far easier than looking after 4 sets of frame bearings

I think one of the biggest issues, well, I feel personally, is just how utterly terrible our economy is and how bad the cost of living actually is in the UK at the moment.

I last bought a bike in 2016, brand new. It cost me £2500. At the time I was 25 and working in an entry level job for 15k a year, I had to commute to work 40 miles a day 5 days a week in a petrol guzzling 2004 Civic Type R that I’d bought the year prior for £4500 which used to cost about £40 to fill for a week, I hadn’t long moved back in with my parents for numerous reasons and I was saving up for a house. I bought that bike on a 0% credit card to get my credit score up for said mortgage and within 12 months had it paid off.

Fast forward to now I’m earning 234% more, and without going into all the intricate details of my finances, there is mortgage, bills, loans etc. I feel I’ve less spending power now than I did even say 5 years ago when I was on 40% less. I’m not sure how those who aren’t in a position like me and the mrs actually manage to survive, every year I do a financial spreadsheet and looking at my one from 5 years ago we were spending £65 avg weekly food shop, now its £150, electric was £34 now its £98, fuel to fill up one of the cars every week was £62 now its £95, water was £11, now its £27 similiar with the gas. Not even taking into account interest rates at the moment, I’ve got a long term loan due to be paid off next year, interest rate on that was 7.4%, looked at a loan the other week of £8000 out of curiosity to get the bathrooms done this year instead of next year and the interest rate on that was anywhere from a whopping 13.9% to 21%!!!

So to put short, I feel people just have massively less spending power to buy new bikes in the UK, wages are poorer, bills are high, neccessities are high, costs are high, interest is high, wallets are lighter. I mean take a look at our American counterparts, the average salaries are much higher, most have health insurance through their jobs so you can’t even argue the paying for healthcare issues that most that would be in the market for bikes will have, fuel is cheaper, food is cheaper and prices are cheaper. Take for example a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo Alloy, £3200 on UK specialized website or $3499 on US specialized website, after doing the conversion £3200 is $4,081.

So they pay more in jobs, pay less for goods so have heavier wallets to buy things, we which in the UK appear not to have, depressing state of affairs.

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Any thoughts on concepts like removing/reducing VAT on bicycles, as with the EU? (I think Portugal are down to 6% VAT for the bike industry)?

I think it’s a step in the right direction. VAT tends to be a somewhat neutral to regressive tax, in so much that the proportion of a household’s income paid out as VAT is higher the poorer you are. Clearly reducing VAT would be welcomed – I don’t like slapping 20% on the price of everything, but I’d rather have say a proper cut to 0% on duty for parts imported to the UK, which would benefit customers and UK manufacturers alike. The VAT cut gives the customer additional spending power which ultimately benefits the very lowest end of the market, but for everyone else just shifts the balance of what they can afford. So if you have a 2k budget you now effectively have a 2.4k one. Thats not going to be the difference as to whether you do or don’t buy something most likely, so I am not convinced it will move the bar on the actual number of units sold in any significant way.

I don’t disagree with most of that ^ but food isn’t always cheaper in the US, in fact some staples when we’ve been on holiday over there are surprisingly high – bread for example averages $2.50 for a loaf.

However, you need to shop around for your loan – I just put in £8K for First Direct and got a quote for 6.9% representative, and MSE have from 5.9%

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/cheap-personal-loans/#7.5k

Of course your situation may be different, in which case i apologise.

…but I’d rather have say a proper cut to 0% on duty for parts imported to the UK, which would benefit customers and UK manufacturers alike.

Would that benefit Hope? For example? It would help some of us, for sure… but what we really need is to to make exporting more competitive for manufacturers here… including rules of origin changes allowing combinations of UK&nonUK parts to be exported with less hassle and taxes… which means other countries removing their import taxes on UK and part UK made goods… doing so unilaterally is going to just add to the stagnation of our economy. What we need is much better mutual trading arrangements with other countries… both neighbouring countries (don’t mention that we had that before Brexit)… and further afield (don’t mention that to achieve that we really need to increase our bargaining power by being part of a large trade block).

you have to move with the times

That’s the thing isn’t it, it’s got to be evolving constantly. This is where Orange IMO went wrong and they stuck with what they thought ‘worked’ be that shape/design or be that pricing and single pivot. That was basically where they went wrong, they stopped moving with the times.

I’m assuming you’re moving more and more into the Eeb market Ben ?

they stopped moving with the times

Ignoring all their updated and new models, not least all their (very good) ebikes.

Of course, exporting ebikes from the UK to anywhere is currently “a bit of a mess”. We all know why. So “moving with the times” is harder for a UK company without being over exposed to the small and currently troubled UK market. Arguably Orange have moved with the times faster than most… but doing so is harder and riskier for a UK company than one based elsewhere… and it’s hard enough wherever you’re based right now.

Ignoring all their updated and new models, not least all their (very good) ebikes.

But they’re not…. they’re a basis on a theme from 15 years ago. Far too divisive a basis at that. Look at a Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz from 10 years ago, they’re totally ‘different’ with even things like suspension kinematics, geometry, chainstay length, cable routing etc… It just feels to me when i see an Orange it’s the same as an Orange 5 was… They’re not bringing ‘new’ to the market even if they think they are.

Look at the companies like Bird/Privateer/Whyte who are their ‘rivals’ or Atherton bikes… Smallish, niche bikes that do a job, they’ve carved out their own little niche and are now what Orange were 15 years ago.

Would that benefit Hope? For example?

Fair point.

I’m assuming you’re moving more and more into the Eeb market Ben ?

Yes but slower than we’d hoped, we’d made a full fat Shimano-based eeb but in the end it wasn’t for us so we shelved it at the 11th hour. We’re now working on a much lighter SL style bike. To be honest, if you can be in the right markets there’s still plenty of scope for selling regular bikes.

I can understand why people get hung up on single pivot but how many truly ground breaking pivot designs have been developed recently? I could be completely wrong but most current full suss bikes seem to be a variation on a couple of systems that have been around ages? They give them fancy names but all seem to work in a similar way. Since front mechs disappeared Orange have significantly changed pivot points etc, their geometry is up to date and I’m not sure what modern cable routing is meant to look like?

Orange’s biggest problem imo is that people want carbon if spending big bucks, regardless whether it’s actually any better.

Take for example a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo Alloy, £3200 on UK specialized website or $3499 on US specialized website, after doing the conversion £3200 is $4,081.

Does that $ value include tax? Very common to have to add tax to US prices

All the comments saying support Orange they’re a British brand, look after our home industry, forefront of the sport etc but cba’ed to stump up for a subscription here – hypocritical much?

The moment STW have an option to subscribe to the forum, I’ll be there.

( and fix the “threads wot I’ve posted on” bug)
🙂

But they’re not…. they’re a basis on a theme from 15 years ago. Far too divisive a basis at that. Look at a Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz from 10 years ago, they’re totally ‘different’ with even things like suspension kinematics, geometry, chainstay length, cable routing etc… It just feels to me when i see an Orange it’s the same as an Orange 5 was… They’re not bringing ‘new’ to the market even if they think they are.

Treks and Santa Cruz look almost exactly the same now as they did 10 years ago. Look at a 2014 5010 or Nomad… I honestly couldn’t tell you whether it was a 2014 bike or a 2024 bike save for some being obviously longer/slacker. Exactly the same as Orange…

they’re a basis on a theme from 15 years ago

In favour of how Orange do things it’s a theme that just works, always has done and is arguably more relevant when applied to e-bikes, the way the market’s going.

Consistency and credibility are under-rated, moving with the times aka following the herd or mass market is how we have 90% of carbon road bikes looking almost the same in silhouette and sooner or later a % of buyers just want something a bit less samey. It’s good to stand out and divide opinion, it’s a stronger position to take than trying to please everyone and a smaller brand doesn’t need to or shouldn’t try to be too mainstream.

Orange’s biggest problem imo is that people want carbon if spending big bucks, regardless whether it’s actually any better.

Feels like this has been the case for 10 years and I used to be a little guilty of it myself, wanting more pivots and stuff.

In a way it doesn’t matter whether some people have mistaken ideas about what the bikes are like, that ignorance is widely shared and that’s all that matters.

In favour of how Orange do things it’s a theme that just works, always has done and is arguably more relevant when applied to e-bikes, the way the market’s going.

And they’ve refined it over the years so the frames are now light, stiff and don’t break too much.

They are much more handsome to my eyes than a generic carbon or hydroformed aluminium MTB, and – more importantly – nothing seems to be quite as much fun to ride.

Why are they going under then?

If they’re all this, all that, singing, dancing etc. but still they’re calling in the administrator

then using a ‘local’ site for free is a bit rich. Support your local journo, eh?

But even “free” users are not using this site “for free”. I see the ads and reviews on the pages. I presume those are generating revenue or why the hell are they there? Are you saying that the singletrack site actually has that weird roadie fetish of wearing faceless corporate logos for free?

 I presume those are generating revenue or why the hell are they there?

Not if you don’t click on them.

This place has adverts? Gosh I didn’t know! Is that what I’m spending roughly 16p a day to avoid? My oh my!

Why are they going under then?

Perhaps in part because you’re right, MTB is a fast-moving fashion market and the market for a simple, durable Al FS MTB at those prices is smaller now and the weight of MTB marketing in general goes against what they’re doing. I expect it’s tricky to sell simple and effective to a market that’s into tech details whether that detail actually makes much difference or not.

I mean, if I went back to owning a FS myself I’d love a Stage based on it looking great, not being carbon and having a single pivot, but I don’t buy bikes for the reasons 90% of MTBers buy bikes. Maybe that’s the issue. I don’t want to be speculating on the reasons for the admin process there, I just don’t know enough about it, I’m just wondering what the size of the market is Vs the market they needed to support the business as it was (hardly high-level business thinking I know). I do believe they have a strong market position and identity plus a product class that’s identifiable as theirs, so the base for the brand is strong.

Why are they going under then?

As James suggests, the disconnect between the product quality and the consumer perception is exactly what we were discussing.

You might think they’re outdated and shit. You;d be wrong. But you won’t be alone in thinking that.

Put one on your shopping list for this year and see what you think.

To weeksy – because there’s only a certain number of expensive bikes you can sell into a small, struggling UK market with a lot of cost competition, and with a ton of money tied up in hard to sell stock life is difficult and short.

I’d also bear in mind they have a decent number of employees, facilities etc.  They’re not comparable to very small shops/builders as they have to pay all these people and things, and they can’t just magically shrink to making specific runs of a few bikes without parting company with all these.

Anyhow Hope has ~5M quid in debt too

They did at the end of April 2022, but they also had net current assets, had made more revenue than the year before, and had made a decent profit. Could have all gone tits up since then but they looked in pretty robust health at the time of their last accounts.\

Big disappointment overall for Orange. I agree pricing was challenging but I’m at a loss as to the comments about ugly bikes and not moving with the times. Objectively is a Santa Cruz better for whatever metric you use for evaluating your mountain biking? I can’t think of any metric where Orange would come out off the pace apart from maybe weight (but even then most carbon long travel bikes are bifters).