UPDATED | Orange Bikes Calls In Administrators

forgetting about the next generation of yet to be brand loyal customers who are priced out of their bikes

Maybe this as well. As far as I’m aware there are none of these riders who produce “sik edits” type things on YouTube etc on Oranges – the last I saw of that type was when Joe Barnes etc rode for them and there was lots of rut slapping fun on Fives/Alpines. Maybe there needs to be more of that kind of thing to help promote the brand again – riders doing what could be perceived as “cool” stuff, hell, maybe moreso than the racing element? Promotion of the brand via racing seems minimal given how little coverage racing gets at any level/discipline – so Orange sponsor (or did) a factory enduro team. The actual brand coverage that provides the brand must be pretty minimal – even as a spectator you see a rider go past on a bike and then a few seconds later, someone else on another bike… that kind of thing isn’t going to want to make me buy that brand.

I’m getting into this now. Orange – call me if you need a hand :D Simplify the range, settle on 1 type of ebike motor, quit the racing stuff completely, sack off all the kids bikes, find a handful of decent riders who produce some good riding videos and sponsor them instead and gain exposure via steep tech/off-piste/50to01 type videos…

Surely all those new gravel riders in the UK are potential XC customers.

That’s a leap!

As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn’t already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don’t offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.

*Doesn’t include size options and wheel size options…I dread to think what the total SKU count is for just hardtail mountain bikes.

I think there’s a relevant point being made about bike companies feeling the pressure to have a product in their line-up catering to every emerging niche.

Yep, it’s a vast and confusing range that requires huge amounts of stock to service it all and yet the one niche they’re missing is gravel bikes!

OK, there’s one, the X9. But even that sort of seems to be aimed at the Orange fanboy MTBer who would naturally look to the same manufacturer for a gravel bike.

Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.

Edit: cross posted with @scotroutes who makes basically the same point.

So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.

So… the wisdom of the forum is…

Yes, exactly!
Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.

Looks like a reverse mullet to me.

Good job, that should keep everyone happy!

As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn’t already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don’t offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.

The RX9 might have become that as the last few versions look pretty dull and went insanely expensive (£2.2k for Apex, really?) to the point where even a fan like me couldn’t justify one but actually they were way ahead of the curve originally, just as they were with other trends. Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014 (and every year since)? Remember the film of the original RX9 being chucked about?

fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics…

😆 good summary. Reminds me a lot of:

https://youtu.be/5lKEMUcnhsY?si=k7BEsyw6DvRZzeVz

Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014

Off the top of my head,
Surly.
Genesis.
Kona.
Van Nicholas.
Santa Cruz
Ibis.

So… the wisdom of the forum is…

That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?

Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014

My Specialized Crux (admittedly originally marketed as a CX) is from 2014. But it’s basically a gravel bike.

That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?

No but there’s some good nuggets of info and a few ideas in the previous 5 pages.

Off the top of my head,

Yep, all in early before GB’s blew up and everyone joined in. The point being they have been able to see which way the wind was blowing in the past, rather than jumping on an established band wagon to cash in, as was suggested.

So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.

Don’t think I said any of that :D

Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014

The RX9 was marketed as a cross bike that could do more, like plenty of other cross bikes around at the time at lower prices. (The Cannondale CAADX was similarly marketed, for example.)

https://archive.orangebikes.co.uk/bike/2014/rx9/

WHY THE RX9?
The RX9 is the CX we’ve always wanted to build. Sure footed and fast. If you want ride options this bike will deliver the goods.

Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.

Yeah, like that thing when a bunch of people on the internet get together and run a non-league football club? Always ends well…

Personally I wish Orange well and hope, for the sake of the people who work there in particular, that they find a way of continuing to trade without anyone being shafted in the process. That said, I’ve never really been drawn to them as a brand, to me they always felt a bit like one of those heritage British car brands – Lotus maybe – that you either feel is cool or not based more on their history than the current range. 

I don’t doubt that the current bikes are good – most modern mountain bikes tend to be – but it feels like you’d really have to want an Orange because you’ve historically bought into the brand. I guess they’ll have their own research and stats on their customer base and I may be – probably am – wide of the mark, but that’s how it feels to me. I don’t know if that’s a flaw with how their marketing and whether Brexit, Covid etc has royally screwed things up for them or if it’s a balance of stuff, but if people aren’t attracted to the brand in the first place, then the breadth or otherwise of the range isn’t really the issue. But who knows.

Also, judging from the gangs of elderly e-mtbers round here – Peak District – a fair few heritage customers are maybe looking at e-bikes rather than high-end conventional mountain bikes, which can’t really help. 

Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012 https://road.cc/content/review/60408-whyte-kings-cross

People were using CX bikes as winter hacks, commuters, forestry road bashers for a long time, the market caught up and started designing bikes to suit.

Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012

Yeah, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz and Ibis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?

FWIW I bought my Kona Sutra in 2007. 

Fair enough, everyone was making gravel type bikes in 2014 and in no way did Orange get in early on a market that was about to explode.

That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, 

I’m inclined to agree, but i’m going to … disagree…

It’s just a business. Lots of people run businesses.

I suspect many people on here have daydreamed about running a small bike company… but those daydreams have evaporated the moment they made it onto a spreadsheet. The numbers just don’t add up.

Add up salaries, and workshop rental, and admin, and etc. and you’re quickly looking at running costs well over £200k.

Making a couple of hundred quid profit per frame and we’d have to sell 1000 frames per year (Good luck with that – it’s a very crowded market).

It seems very likely that we will see other uk bike companies running into the buffers before too long. My internal spreadsheet says that the companies which survive will be the ones run as a side-hustle.

(where the person who owns/runs the company isn’t taking a full salary, but an amount based on an honest pro-rata value of the actual amount of time it takes to run the business)

Well none of us can solve Orange’s woes without actually knowing why they were in the red for so long, anyway.

I’m a bit of a Whyte fan tbh but I’m going to chuck out that Whyte are a good example of a mid sized player in the UK market:

UK focused design, well priced, sensible spec, forward looking, widely available through lbs and online, ‘likeable’ brand but not trying too hard to be aspiration

I get the impression that Orange have been eaten from all angles. Not as boutique as SC, not as hi tech as spesh, too expensive V Whyte. Plus their core users have aged out.

Whyte are also a great example of changing your identity to make your brand far more palatable. Fair assumption that they sold many more T130s than PRST-1s

So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like thebig box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.

that is the beauty of decision by committee!

Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.

I’m not particularly picking on this one quote. But it’s an example of something I’m seeing in this thread and the who next thread. A dealer network isn’t something that most consumers on this forum value.

Not as boutique as SC

Santa Cruz aren’t in any way other than their marketed image boutique. They’re mass produced in the Far East by a huge conglomerate.

A dealer network isn’t something that most consumers on this forum value.

It is and it isn’t.

I think the days of walking into a bike shop and being able to get (eg) a new BB are long gone. There are hundreds of BB variants now so the chances of the shop having the exact parts are slim to none and shops can’t afford to be stocking everything because they have neither the space nor the cash.

It’s even the same with a basic consumable like brake pads.

I really value my LBS, they’re brilliant mechanics and I take most of my bikes to them for even fairly basic stuff now because they have all the tools, space and resources to do a good job. They can even service almost everything on my Canyon and I know that if I need a specific part, it’s one email or web order (and about 2 days) away so I don’t really *need* a dealer network.

And even if Canyon had a dealer network, the same principle applies – it’s unlikely that a bricks and mortar shop could hold in stock every version of every specific part or bearing from every Canyon model.

And that definitely applies to Orange who seem (to me and several other people on this thread) to have an excess of models and options and that requires a similar excess of parts, spares and accessories.

we should all get together and start our own bike company.

I think the name Sick! might be available.

Yeah, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz and Ibis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?

Kinesis had the Tripster in 2012, I’ve still got the one that @somafunk convinced me to buy with that tripster thread of theirs.

OK, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz, Ibis and Kinesis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?

Edit: and Marin

Doesn’t really surprise me, you hardly ever see folk riding an Orange where once they were commonplace. They’ve not really innovated and are expensive compared to the opposition. A real shame but I hope they can be saved.

There has been a lot of comparison between Orange and Canyon.  I like the “new bike day” feeling when very occasionally I get a new bike.  Last year I was lucky enough to get a new full suspension bike, my first one since 2010.   I travelled 80 miles each way to the shop, where I had had excellent service with (very) knowledgeable staff.  The shop are Orange stockists, however I came out with another brand, because I preferred it.  Equally I could have bought the Orange but didn’t.  Price wasn’t the only factor, it was more about the bike feeling!

With my road bike, I also valued service and travelled a long way to find a suitable shop.  A friend bought a Canyon, same group set, similar price, however he subsequently changed cassette, chain and mech to get his preferred ratios.  In addition while the wheels were great quality they weren’t the ideal section for UK roads, so again we’re changed.  The Canyon ended up being considerably more expensive than my equivalent shop bought bike, where they could advice on what works for the individual.  Unfortunately because society wants Canyon more than a proper bike shop service, this service is dwindling.

I have aP7 from 2017 ish, and it is great, I always wanted to pair it with a five or stage, but unfortunately that doesn’t look likely now.

I hope the staff are looked after.

Username doesn’t entirely check out

, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?

Edit: and Marin

There was another Yorkshire based company offering a do-it-all road/cross/gravel bike back then (and now), and they had until recently, possibly a more mental line-up… until administration and a buy-out last year. You know who it is, everyone loves them!

Its hard to keep Pace of this thread.

OK, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz, Ibis and Kinesis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?

Edit: and Marin

Even Pinnacle had a gravel bike in 2014.

Talking of the wide range of bikes – looking back at my copy of the 2000 price list, we had a choice of-
Hardtails: Gringo (starting at £499.95 for rigid), P7 steel, EvO2, EvO2 limited ed, P7 pro, E4 pro, E4 XTR’a (£2099.95)
Dirt/jump hardtails: AirO (£889.95), Msisle, Msisle Pro (£1449.95)
Full sus: Patriot (£1399.95), Sub 5, MrXC, Sub5 pro, MrXC pro, Patriot Pro, MrO pro (£1999.95), Sub 5 Xtr’a, MrXC Xtr’a
Long travel special editions: Patriot LT, Patriot Millenium, MrO DH (£3499.95)

point being they had 7 different hardtails in various configs and 4 full sus bikes, so perhaps the slightly confusing lineup has been a thing in their DNA for a while. Prices really jumped from 2000 to 2001, the Sub 5 pro went from £1599 to £2100, not sure if that was down to parts rises or capitalising on the popularity of the bikes

my mrXC xtra (the first mrXC, and I think the first front-triangle-with-a-swingarm bike they ever sold) was £2799 from memory, in 1999, which was in line with other top-end bikes at the time (everything seemed to max out around £3k). Its still going strong as a kiddy carrier(!) Thats about £5200 today, which wouldn’t get you an equivilent model any more (the XT based 5 evo is about a grand more).

I wonder if the “million models” thing is based on how they make them – they can probably pop out a batch of 3 or 4 frames at the same rate as a batch of 50 – so why not something to everyone if they’re built to order? The stage evo alone has 28 colour/size options, so there’s no way they’re keeping that lot in stock. It might even be that some parts (ie front triangle) are shared across multiple bikes and only things like the shock mounting on the rear swingarm changes

Even Pinnacle had a gravel bike in 2014.

Yeah, but the designer was a man of rare genius

I suspect many people on here have daydreamed about running a small bike company…

All I need to do is start with a large bike company!

@slackboy, lol