OO La La – French Politics

I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/

If only they cut down on their takeaways and cancelled their sky subscription…

Yes. In a global context, it is.

Well I am surprised that you cannot see the obvious and serious crises which neoliberalism is currently experiencing and that you believe voters globally are simply overreacting to “the slightest sign”.

I probably need to re-evaluate my expectations. I seem to have misunderstood your starting point.

Well it seems like moderation is going out of fashion in lots of places. To my mind, that can only be a bad thing.

What do you actually mean by ‘moderation’? I see nothing moderate about a system which allows individuals to accumulate billions while many more have to sleep on the streets. There’s nothing moderate about corporations extracting billions in profit from the economy without having to pay any of it back while health services, schools and local amenities crumble and decay. There’s nothing moderate about funding wars and supplying weapons to countries who are slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people. If that and all the other horrific stuff that happens as a result of our political and economic system is what you call moderate you can keep it quite frankly.

The phrase “be careful what you wish for” will suffice here, I think.

And if my reading of the situation in France is correct, the least likely outcome is a numerically stable centrist government.

So you won’t have long to wait.

I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/

What percentage of the electorate do you think they constitute?

What percentage of the electorate do you think they constitute?

Whatever it is, it’s too big. Being dismissive of it isnt helping anyone.

We do have a fairly accessible number for the total number of people experiencing homelessness is Manchester. (No idea how many are voters)

Manchester has some of the highest levels of homelessness in the UK – according to statistics published by Shelter in January 2023, Manchester ranks third-highest in the country for people experiencing homelessness per capita, with around 7,407 people (one in 74 people) experiencing homelessness.

I’m ok with anyone categorizing that number as pretty f****ed up.

https://mhp.org.uk/homelessness-in-manchester/

It is **** up. It’s horrendous. On an individual level and in overall number.

But do we honestly think that the 14.3%(?) of the population that vored Reform had a ‘justified’ reason for doing so?

Are there 9.7 MILLION homeless people in the UK, of whom it can justifiably be said “they had no alternative or no better alternative” when they voted Reform?

Are there ****.

We all know the answer. Some dare speak the real reasons. Others don’t dare.

FFS people living rough on the streets don’t even vote, that’s not the issue! The issue is that they represent just one symptom of a fecked up society with fecked up priorities.

Is it really beyond your capability to understand that?

So voting for fascists is a justifiable protest against inequality in society?

You are going to have to explain this very methodically. Possibly in words of one syllable. If that makes me thick, then I guess I’m an idiot.

So voting for fascists is a justifiable protest against inequality in society?

Yes that is exactly what everyone is saying :rolls eyes:

Yes that is exactly what everyone is saying :rolls eyes:

Is it?

Oh, OK.

In that case, I really am a man out of time.

It’s disappointing. Maybe it is me who has the problem with my desire for moderation.

What a funny little pseudo-world this is.

Yes that is exactly what everyone is saying :rolls eyes:

And, for the record, it is pretty much exactly what dazh is saying, yes.

I refer you to the comment where he says “you cannot blame voters for that”.

My God, the ideological loop-the-loops you chaps must go through to avoid facing facts!

Notre Dame looked cool tonight. Except for the odd orange glow.

Notre Dame looked cool tonight. Except for the odd orange glow.

I’m not really a religious person.

But some religious buildings (as well as non-religious ones and simple landmarks/structures) seem to stand in defiance, through sheer persistence and scale, of fickle human stupidity and short sightedness.

Durham cathedral is another that springs to mind. Simply massive versus the petty considerations of whatever the cause célèbre may be at any given time.

It’s almost as if our forebears had already had all these discussions and worked out the answers for themselves.

Is their any quantitative, not qualitative data that people are voting Reform because it’s the most fascist option? Certainly didn’t see 14% of the electorate out rioting on the streets a few months back.

I doubt that 1% of Reform UK voters consider the party to be fascist.

Jesus wept, now we have the lefties condoning voting for the uber me me me politics of Reform (yet anyone voting Tory is immediately labelled scum). Here’s a terrible thought you can’t seem to get your heads around, it’s not all about the government, voters have agency as well. Unless you’re saying voters are so thick that they can’t be held liable for where they place their vote, is that what you’re saying voters are ignorant? Cos according to many ppsts on here you cant blame the voters.

Despite what Thatcher said (unless you’re going defend her now as well) there is a thing called society and we’re all part of it. Part of being in that society is taking your responsibilities seriously, be that contributing what is expected of you or voting. In return you should expect some level of support when you need it. Voting Reform is the opposite of being a responsible member of society, a party that actively seeks to demonise large sections of society, including the homeless, for naked political gain.

And just to knit pick for a moment, there’s a big difference between the tiny number of rough sleepers (around 4000) and the number of homeless people (around 400000), not that That makes the number acceptable. Homelessness will never be eradicated, there will always be people who screw up their lives. What we should aim for is making the period of homelessness as short as possible by getting their lives back on track. Rough sleeping we should be able to sort quick quickly if we bothered to invest in safe available hostels with rehabilitation at their core but that would require people to be removed from the streets which I imagine a lot of people would have issues with.

And just to knit pick for a moment

I dont think anyone was saying homelessness always means rough sleeping. I certainly wasnt but could have added more to make that clearer perhaps

And just to knit pick for a moment,

It’s “nitpick”.

People who are so quick to condemn people for voting Reform seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that it was the centrist parties (and more importantly, those who voted for them) who participated in making Reform an acceptable alternative.

The Tories chased Reform by aping (or just plain stealing) their policies.  Labour chased the Reform voters by doing the same.  Along the way Reform became acceptable.

So yes, all you ‘moderate’ voters have done far more to promote Reform than those of us who refused to vote for a Labour party that was actively courting voters who were thinking about voting for neo-fascists.

You can condemn desperate people from your comfortable middle class life all you want.  The fact is it was your ‘moderate’ party that made it acceptable for many people to even consider Reform in the first place.

It’s “nitpick”.

Fair point.

the centrist parties (and more importantly, those who voted for them)

Ah I see it’s OK to have a go at people who voted for centrist parties but not OK to have a go at the complete wallopers who voted for the racist bigot party. Could you explain your thinking please because you sound somewhat confused.

those of us who refused to vote for a Labour party

So who did you vote for or did you not vote at all, preferring instead to maintain some sort of moral high ground.

Might also amaze you to know that there are still a lot of people quite happy with Labour who voted for them without unrealistic expectations and are getting what was expected. People who knew it was going to be tough moving forward and are quite comfortable with middle class voters losing their WFA and seeing inheritance tax loop hiles being closed, the return of onshore wind and increased house building to help solve the housing crisis. All things the comfortable middle classes allegedly hate.

Despite what Thatcher said (unless you’re going defend her now as well)

That’s where I stopped reading.

So yes, all you ‘moderate’ voters have done far more to promote Reform than those of us who refused to vote for a Labour party that was actively courting voters who were thinking about voting for neo-fascists.

See above about ideological loop-the-loops.

That is risible, I’m afraid.

Jesus wept, now we have the lefties condoning voting for the uber me me me politics of Reform

Nope. Not a single one us ‘lefties’ has said people should vote reform. What we have done though is explain why people are voting that way. The centrist response as usual is to point a patronising finger at people who dare to challenge the obvious problems in our political and economic system.

The last thing I want to see in this country is Farage or Reform anywhere near govt. Mainstream parties are going to ensure that happens though by slavishly maintaining the status quo.

There is no mainstream left option available, and no party that’s going to move in that direction, if anyone wants it, it has to be driven from outside.

Well if the French really press the “Boo hoo hoo, we just want change and any change will do” option (if they haven’t already), then we will be able to observe the consequences. As it stands right now, I think a Le Pen presidency is the most likely outcome.

What happens if Macron resigns? Is there a way to lock her into a presidency with the machinery of State working against her? That is probably the best outcome to hope for if possible. Not that Macron will resign, IMO.

You can already observe parties labelled as far right getting into government, Meloni and the Brothers of Italy.

Not a single one us ‘lefties’ has said people should vote reform. What we have done though is explain why people are voting that way

As I said condoning people voting Reform, I agree no one said people should vote Reform.

The centrist response as usual is to point a patronising finger at people who dare to challenge the obvious problems in our political and economic system.

Sorry I wasn’t intending to patronise people voting Reform, I was intending to single them out as rather nasty selfish simplistic people. Although absolving people of really poor voting because the nasty centrists made them do it does sound more than a little patronising, along the lines of they are so easily led its not their fault they voted for the racisits and bigots.

And the usual leftist response is have a go at the dirty centrists whilst demanding something that’s not being offered. If there is no party out there pushing the much touted solutions of the Left you have to wonder why……..

As I said condoning people voting Reform, I agree no one said people should vote Reform.

I would say that “understand” and “condone” are not synonymous.