OO La La – French Politics

Can’t see a thread on the French government meltdown. An unholy alliance of the far left and far right have brought down the centrist government trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running. Seems not dissimilar to the issues here,boring centrist government trying to sort out the longer term problems resulting from telling the people they can have their cake and eat it for decades finally hitting the buffers of reality. Populist extremes on both sides with no real solutions pile on telling the people what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear. Germany seems similar (spent a lot of time working there this year) rise of the far right, generous labour laws and welfare resulting in very high absence from work and high profile German manufacturers (Volkswagen and Bosch) shutting plants in Germany which is unheard of.

And Russian social media bots piling in from both sides of the extreme to punish Macron for his support of Ukraine and try an dpush France in a more Putin-aligned direction.

Its all self created ( Macron’s little summer of fun ) but Putin has his fingers all over this I think, just as in Georgia ( blatant ) and South Korea ( less obvious ) but he has the political extremes on the march, all to suit him.

boring centrist government trying to sort out the longer term problems resulting from telling the people they can have their cake and eat it for decades

Funny how boring centrists govts are always comfortable telling working people they can’t have their cake and eat it but do exactly the opposite to the mega-rich and the financial and corporate elite. Until centrist parties across the west begin to reverse the flow of money from poor to rich ‘extremist’ (is it extreme to suggest we can do something different to the status quo?) parties will gain more and more support.

 Until centrist parties across the west begin to reverse the flow of money from poor to rich

Which is going to be difficult to do if the government is being undermined by inter-party squabbling and is dissolved. The likes of LePen and Farage are paid by monied interest to keep moving the goalposts so that there is always something else to complain about. Until the people who lend their support to the likes of these parties gain some critical thinking facilities and realise that National Rally and Reform  have zero interest in solving their problems – quite the reverse in fact, then things are unlikely to improve.

Until centrist parties across the west begin to reverse the flow of money from poor to rich

Then they wouldn’t be centrist, would they?

Which is going to be difficult to do if the government is being undermined by inter-party squabbling and is dissolved

This was all Macrons making, the “left” was the biggest party in the election, and he stabbed them in the back and apointed a right wing PM. Why should the left keep supporting the centrists when the centrists are more interested in attacking the left than dealing with the actual problems caused my their constant march to the right.

Although I am not sure centrist really describes these parties, they are now traditional right wing parties, “centrist” is just marketing bullshit.

Can’t see a thread on the French government meltdown.

There was one from June https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/french-elections/

An unholy alliance of the far left and far right have brought down the centrist government trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running. Seems not dissimilar to the issues here

That’s a strange conclusion imo, I cannot see an obvious comparison to the UK. The ruling UK government party has a massive majority. It isn’t threatened by an unholy alliance of the far left and far right, and it’s not going to be “brought down” at any time in the next 4-5 years.

And the “centrists” in France have governed for years, so I don’t know whose massive deficit you think they have been trying to sort out.

high profile German manufacturers (Volkswagen and Bosch) shutting plants in Germany which is unheard of

The German car industry is also shutting plants in Germany. Two main reasons being they bet big on forcing the German government to block the legislation forcing the shift to electric and didn’t invest enough in developing electrical vehicles, and while they managed to slow the legislation down they didn’t stop it and the gamble failed and they are now in trouble. Secondly they are moving some production to north america to head of Trumps trade war.

That’s a strange conclusion imo,

Ok so no massive rise of the far right in the UK, everyone’s happy with the current centrist government telling them there is a bill to pay, Okay…….

And the “centrists” in France have governed for years, so I don’t know whose massive deficit you think they have been trying to sort out.

The whole of French politics has been about the demands of the people for years, no politicians in France have had the balls to say no, if they did they got them lopped off. It would be interesting to see just how bad it is now for the centrists to finally step up and acknowledge the situation.

Ok so no massive rise of the far right in the UK

It’s hardly comparable to France is it? And where is the comparable far-left which you claim has formed an unholy alliance with the far-right to bring down a centrist government?

The UK government is perfectly stable, the comparison with the situation in France isn’t obvious to me.

no politicians in France have had the balls to say no

So the “massive budget deficit” in France which you speak of was caused by centrist governments, again I fail to see the similarities with the UK. The current UK government has only been in power for 5 months, and it’s actually saying no to quite a few things!

The only similarity that I can see between France and the UK currently is that both have governments which appear  to be a bit unpopular with voters, but that comparison could be made with plenty of other countries.

Btw unlike France I don’t recall any UK government ever describing themselves as “centrist”.

I heard some daft far-left French politician on R4 earlier. Bleating on about ‘centrist this, centrist that’. She soon shut up when she was asked who she would prefer as president – Macron or Le Pen. It took me right back to old Jezza Corbyn and Brexit.

Socialists enabling fascists to score a (pyrrhic) point. Superb.

Plus ça change, as they might say over there.

Face, meet palm.

 heard some daft far-left French politician on R4 earlier. Bleating on about ‘centrist this, centrist that’. She soon shut up when she was asked who she would prefer as president – Macron or Le Pen. It took me right back to old Jezza Corbyn and Brexit.

Socialists enabling fascists to score a (pyrrhic) point. Superb.

Plus ça change, as they might say over there.

Face, meet palm.

Centrists like being alarmist about how ‘this election might be the last election ever so vote for us even though we’re going to continue doing the same things that are causing people to find their incomes and wealth being eroded which is causing the continuing rise of the far right.’

Le Pen (or someone even worse than her) is coming.  Voting for centrists is not going to change that.  In fact, it’s going to make it more likely.

Or are the centrists going to magically find some way to stop being reliant on billionaires and start redistributing wealth?

Well it’s been a while since anyone has suggested that as leader of the Labour Party Corbyn was “far-left”, so I guess this thread is as good as any for a timely reminder.

Edit: And of course blaming Corbyn for Brexit, whilst conveniently leaving out the awkward fact that a second referendum was a manifesto commitment of his and one which undoubtedly cost Labour votes. And that he made an arch-remainer Shadow Brexit Secretary.

Le Pen (or someone even worse than her) is coming. Voting for centrists is not going to change that. In fact, it’s going to make it more likely.

Oh well, that’s alright, then.

 … trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running

When people are hungry, earning a living is extra stressful, disposable income does not extend very far, living becomes rather difficult.

When the people are running low on their stamina and with a govt making fairy tale promises, that’ when the govt get a reality kick in their backside.

No amount of policies will turn things around when energy cost is high and where people just don’t have enough to spend.

More Govts will fall.

(In the UK Labour got one term to prove themselves and if they cannot handle this, I am afraid they will only be a one term govt and perhaps a new political party will win in the next election.  People want change drastically.  Stamina is low)

When people are hungry, earning a living is extra stressful, disposable income does not extend very far, living becomes rather difficult.

In reality, though, 95%+ of the electorate of France, Britain, Germany etc are not hungry on a regular basis.

For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting.

But that’s the moral of the tale of not spoiling children, isn’t it?

In reality, though, 95%+ of the electorate of France, Britain, Germany etc are not hungry on a regular basis.

Not hungry as in starving but the increasingly finding it challenging to sustain the living (lifestyle and standard) their desire.

The opportunity of flirting with fascism is not something just happened overnight but the accumulated failure of past govts that presented or created such opportunity.

It does not help when the govts become complacent in their governing by assuming people to have or continue to make limited choice of choosing the mainstream parties.  Well, that assumption has definitely been put to test now the incumbent govt will just have to find out the hard way.

For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. 

good luck with this as an electoral policy tho!

For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting

Well, yes, if we compare ourselves people living in the 12th century then of course no one has anything to complain about.

However, we don’t live in the 12th century.  We live in one of the periods of time where society’s wealth is flowing towards the few at an ever increasing rate and people are permanently worried about how they can afford to pay rent, buy food, and pay for electricity.

The cost of these vastly outstrip any discretionary spending and that is why it’s possible to apparently be able to afford ‘luxuries’ but still have significant fears over being able to afford the basics.  So yes, people can afford TVs because a TV is very likely to be less than a month’s rent.

So yes, not as many people are dying of malnutrition (even though malnutrition is on the rise) but that is not evidence that all is well with the world.

So yes, not as many barely any people in developed western Europe or the US are dying of malnutrition (even though malnutrition is on the rise) but that is not evidence that all is well with the world.

It certainly isn’t evidence that all is well in ‘the world’. But bloated ‘westerners’ have less to gripe about than 80%+ of the rest. Immediately jumping to fascism because they might have to cut back to 3 takeaways a week from 4 strikes me as a symptom of being spoiled rotten. In a global context, then, I maintain that it is disgusting.

It doesn’t help with doing anything about it, mind.

One irony that should (but won’t) register with our homegrown fascists in the UK is that, should a Le Pen become president of France, you can expect small boat crossings to go through the roof. Post-colonial nationalism is just that – export as many problems over your borders as possible. Zero wider strategy.

good luck with this as an electoral policy tho!

Well you would hope that the average French, British, German, American etc voter would have the good grace, education and worldview to know that, by comparison, theirs is a gilded existence.

But, nah. Blame it on ‘abroad’. That’s much easier and neater.

How much of the debt/deficit is due to the generous French social contract, eg pensions, redundancy pay, etc.?

Well you would hope that the average French, British, German, American etc voter would have the good grace, education and worldview to know that, by comparison, theirs is a gilded existence.

But again, the point shouldn’t be to say, ‘people in the world have it worse off than you’ so you have to vote for the centrists.  It should be to acknowledge that everyone is getting poorer and it’s not because the rest of the world is becoming richer.  It’s because a very small number of people are siphoning off the wealth of the world.  So yes, some people in the world have it worse.  Doesn’t mean it’s OK that billionaires and oligarchs are stealing your wealth (not to mention the wealth of the people in the world who have it worse off).

Voting for centrists is going to do nothing to stem the flow of wealth and power to the few.  Centrists are totally reliant on these same billionaires and oligarchs to get elected.

And, of course, neo-fascists are also reliant on different billionaires and oligarchs to get elected (and sometimes it’s even the same billionaires and oligarchs).  The choice should not be between enriching oligarchs with a ‘woke*’ government or a neo-fascist government.

*and I still reckon the wokeness of centrist governments is largely performative

If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I’d rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don’t.

Even if that respect is purely borne of their own self interest.

For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting.

FFS you really have no idea do you? There are millions of people in the ‘rich’ west who are homeless, hungry or scraping a living to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads working insecure and very poorly paying jobs. There are also hundreds of millions of people in the middle (like most of us on this forum) who are seeing their incomes, savings and standard of living eroded while being required to work more whilst the public services they rely on are allowed to crumble and decay. And this is all happening with the backdrop of a gilded 1% who live like kings, lording it over everyone else while they jet around the world between their multiple luxury homes, yachts and whatever else. And that same 1% tell everyone else that they are not the problem, and instead it’s foreigners and scroungers. That’s why people are flirting with populist parties.

Meanwhile, in France… a right wing party is trying to roll back public services, using migrants as an excuse to do so, and is blocking any attempts to make business pay a bit more to keep services available to the poor who need them.

If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I’d rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don’t.

It’s not either or.  You are getting both.

It’s really quite spectacular.  As more and more wealth is siphoned off support for the neo-fascists grows.  This causes the centrists to move further right.

No matter who wins more and more wealth is siphoned off and the far right continue to move further right and the centre dutifully follows them.

Voting for centrists is voting to continue this cycle.

If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I’d rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don’t.

There’s nothing moderate or normal about accumulating wealth which you couldn’t spend in hundreds of lifetimes let alone a single one. Billionaires are by definition extremists. Their lives are so far beyond what the vast majority think is normal or acceptable that they should be seen as criminals, not leaders, and the only reason they get away with it is because they have manipulated and corrupted the political system to ensure their wealth and power is never threatened.

So it’s OK to vote for fascists, then?

Alright, I’m a white British, middle aged, middle class male. You don’t really get more average than me.

I’m going to vote Reform next time around. Thanks for the encouragement.

So it’s OK to vote for fascists, then?

Nope, it’s not OK to vote for fascists.

It’s also not OK to vote for centrists and they will continue to allow wealth to be siphoned to billionaires, erode public services, and lead to the perfect conditions for fascism to thrive.

Vote for someone else.

Vote for someone else.

Nah. I’m going to vote Reform.

Might as well join the crowd punching down and blaming everyone else. It makes things much simpler, ta.

So it’s OK to vote for fascists, then?

Of course it isn’t, but you can’t blame the voters for doing so. Given the choice of more of the same or something different, even if there is a strong suspicion that the new thing won’t be any better, people will vote for the latter. Brexit proved that, Johnson proved that, Trump proved that, and very soon Farage will be proving it. The only way to stop people voting for populists is for centrist parties to address their concerns and start reversing the trend of the rich getting ever richer while everyone else gets poorer.

It’s a pattern we’ve seen time and again throughout history, and this is just the latest cycle..

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/30/the-deep-historical-forces-that-explain-trumps-win

Of course it isn’t, but you can’t blame the voters for doing so.

Cool.

I’m a voter.

I’ll vote Reform next time.

You can’t blame me, after all. Right?

Might as well join the crowd punching down and blaming everyone else. It makes things much simpler, ta.

Well we had a perfect opportunity as a country to punch upwards in 2017 and 2019. The centrists in the labour party and UK establisment ensured that didn’t happen though, and now we are where are.

I’ll vote Reform next time.

You can’t blame me, after all. Right?

Yawn.

If you support Reform by all means vote for them. If you’re concerned about the rise of fascism then maybe have a think if supporting the same tired old policies of the centrist status quo will prevent that or make it worse?

Alright, I’m a white British, middle aged, middle class male. You don’t really get more average than me.

That sounds more “massively privileged” than “average”. I’m the same demographic btw.

That sounds more “massively privileged” than “average”. I’m the same demographic btw.

We established above that it is still fine to vote fascist without blame – even if you’re not on the breadline yourself.

So, as (apparently) I’ve nothing to lose, I’m just going to take the lazy option. It’ll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.

Reform it is for me.

So, as (apparently) I’ve nothing to lose, I’m just going to take the lazy option. It’ll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.

Sounds to me like you’re very easily persuaded by that argument. I wonder why that is?

Reform it is for me.

You seem to have given up on this discussion and are throwing some sort of performative hissy fit.

If you don’t want to discuss this couldn’t you just have a flounce and leave the thread instead?