Not putting the heating on – how’s it going…?

A 5 minute blast with the fan heater before I jump into the shower. Still using minimal hot water, quick blast of water on soap and body then switch off. Switch back on to rinse. 5 minute blast with fan heater after I’ve dried myself and before applying toiletries.

Oil-filled radiator may go on in the evening for a bit but strictly rationed at the lowest setting.

No need for central heating currently.

Had the first complaints from Mrs 2000 last night. As it was book(wine) club night she went and enjoyed someone elses heating while I just added a bodywarmer (gilet)

I overheard her on the phone yesterday saying that we have a fan heater in the garage (my bike work area) and that she will be bringing that inside for her home office. I am guessing those things eat up the electricity so I might have to hide it.

Why do people put their thermostat on at a temp of over 18c? That temp is a nice warmish summer day, yet some have central heating blasting out at 21 +

there’s a massive difference between 18C in the sunshine and 18C in the shade though.

It’s currently 18.2 in this room. I’m wearing a t-shirt, long sleeved shirt and a thick wool jumper, and I’m about to go and find my slippers because I’ve got cold feet. I do feel the cold a bit, but it’s definitely not summer’s day weather!

I’m fascinated by this thread. I lived in the NE and Bradford until I left Uni then came down here to Pembrokeshire in 1999 and have been here ever since. I think I’ve forgotten how cold the rest of the country, especially the North, can be.
I’ve just flicked through the BBC weather app and there is no point in time, day or night, for the next 2 weeks, where the temperature here drops into single figures. I’ve been in shorts and a tshirt all day and haven’t worn socks since about April.
I guess we’re lucky down here in this little microclimate; the mountain bike sucks though!

A lot of people implying that it’s the women who cave first

I was under the impression that ladies feel the cold more. Maybe I’m wrong.

Either way my OH works outside and her getting soaked through and cold = me or her putting the heating on, or more accurately adjusting the thermostat up to 21 from 17, to please the central heating term pedants.

Why do people put their thermostat on at a temp of over 18c? That temp is a nice warmish summer day, yet some have central heating blasting out at 21 +

If we put it above 19 it feels to hot. Generally (when on due to being actually cold out) we set it to 18/19 or off/16.
I’m experimenting this winter with the boiler turned down so it runs more efficiently and the warming up is more gradual.

I’m experimenting this winter with the boiler turned down so it runs more efficiently and the warming up is more gradual.

When I still had central heating that really cut gas consumption and made the house more comfortable. The boiler had two levels of gas burning and if I turned the circulated water temperature below a number I can’t remember the burner never clicked up to the higher level and ran more efficently.

As a bonus the house temperature was more stable, less of a saw tooth. Happy with the result of the experiment I dropped the circulating water temperature to the minimum, just over 30°C IIRC, and that’s where it stayed till I ripped it all out deeming it unnecessary thanks to insulation and using solar/leccy for hot water.

11° in the downstairs loo this morning.

Will post more later….

The air con is set to 22* to come on for an hour before we get up, economy 7 electricity at 12p per Kwh, heat pump is using 0.7 Kwh so costs about 8.5ish pence.
I’ve got the Loop app to keep on top of consumption.

Haven’t turned to on yet, hasn’t been too bad so far. In Inverness.

My colleague just had 4 new night storage heaters fitted.
They are smaller but supposedly more efficient than the 30 year old ones tjat were removed.
Now, here’s the thing. He doesn’t have economy7, but has non working smart meter.
He lives in a mobile phone dead spot so i think it s a combination of no signal and he did not have the wireless power meter either. So the hub is waiting for remote to pair and updates are not getting through
But, its ok as the fitters set the timers so all 4 run for 2hrs in the morning and 3 hours early evening.
So it will cost him a fortune to run. Geniuses

My colleague just had 4 new night storage heaters fitted.

Son replaced his storage heaters with radiant heater panels, seems to be happy with them.

The modern lot 20 storage heaters are quite good that’s what we used before the heat pump.

I’m experimenting this winter with the boiler turned down so it runs more efficiently and the warming up is more gradual.

Can we talk about this? I’ve read that the boiler should be on max, when it’s not a combi boiler.

Can we talk about this?

Of course. Happy to be learned otherwise. I was chatting to a heating engineer recently. An actual engineer who knows his boilers rather than a tech who installs them so should know what he’s on about (in theory).
His explanation was similar to cruising on the motorway at 65 compared to 80. Uses a lot less fuel and still get you to your destination. Destination here being a warm house.

@molgrips can you explain your side so we understand both arguments? I’m sure there is a proper use case. Probably depends on house performance (insulation etc).

We’ve managed to defer so far. Dr Ernie asked this morning when we should put the heating on, I said November. Ma u be next time i’ll respond n+1

Not a sniff yet down in East Devon.
I was out at a gig in some woods last night, and it was still 15°c at 11pm. Positively balmy!

11° in the downstairs loo this morning.

Nearly time to double-layer the loo roll on the toilet seat 😉

His explanation was similar to cruising on the motorway at 65 compared to 80.

That’s heavily dumbed-down to the point of being unhelpful, at least to me!

can you explain your side

We’ve got a traditional system with a hot water tank and a condensing boiler in a 3 storey town house style, meaning that there’s a central stairwell, effectively. There are 6 rooms with dumb TRVs, two towel rails without, and three hallway rads also without. There is a single knob on the boiler that controls the water output temperature, and it is not calibrated – just says ‘min’ and ‘max’, currently on ‘max’. The pump appears to be a plan single speed type.

The radiators appear to be fed from the top of the house down. The ones on the top floor get hotter and heat up much more quickly than the ones downstairs, which is annoying AF because it’s obviously the top floor that’s much warmer than the ground floor since all the heat floats up the stairwell.

So the issue is that the requirements vary massively throughout the day. In the morning, we’d ideally like to heat the kitchen and hallway. Our bedrooms are already warm. During the day, I work in my room on the top floor but I don’t want the rest of the house heated. In the evening, we might want the living room heated.

So in the daytime scenario, if I get smart TRVs to shut off all the other rads, and my room is cold, then I would get hot water diverted to the rad in my room but that’s small and will take a while to heat up the room so during that time most of the heat is going back to the boiler – bad. So I need to actually heat the hallways and bathrooms (via towel rail) anyway, purely so I can dump the heat. Even if I set the output temp lower, this isn’t going to help much as most of the water is going back to the boiler because the radiator is small.

We currently have a hallway thermostat, but it’s wireless so can be moved. It’s set to a fairly low temperature (17-18) whenever it comes on, the timings of which well change this winter.

So if my house is well insulated and most rads are not on, I think this means a lower output temperature probably is better? But that will depend on how cold it actually is. I guess it could be adjusted throughout the year – set it nice and low in October and increase it according to weather. I think that fancier boilers can adjust the temp depending on weather.

I have an IR thermometer so I can check the output and return temps. Apparently the return temp should be 54C or less. But I don’t think I can avoid heating the hallways. This raises the question of whether or not I should just use electricity during the day for my work room. Sure, electricity is 5x the price.ofngas, but if gas means heating 5x the volume, it’s no advantage.

Molly
Drayton wiser do a smart trv set thats slightly easier on the e wallet than other options. We sell kits at work that appear well made.
Option 2 is bigger or better rad in your room. T22 double panel, double convector will heat tge room faster and lower the return water temps.
Short term, wind in the lock sheild valve s on the other top floors to reduce flow so the downstairs gets more, hotter water faster.
We sell freeze kits to allow wet rad swaps to save drainage and more inhibitor. Last 45mins or so. What length is the rad in your office?

Having hot water going back to the boiler is ok afaik, it just wont fire and send it constantly round your office and towel rails, as they tend to be open circuit, again wind in the locksheilds if thsy are toasty.

If you have a bypasd boiler you could smart trv the whole house. Woyld cost a fair bir in control heads

We’ve got a traditional system with a hot water tank and a condensing boiler in a 3 storey town house style, meaning that there’s a central stairwell, effectively.

Are you sure your boiler is a combi condenser? they don’t need to have hot water tanks?

The advice I read with combi boilers is the CH flow temp (temp the boiler heats the CH water to, not the thermostat target temp)for the CH is often set too high, say 70c rather than 55c.

The result of lowering it means the boiler stays in ‘condensing mode’ when the heatings on, which is mouch more efficient.
The lower flow temp means it takes longer for the room to hit your target temp you set on the thermostat, but that is overshadoed by the efficiency gains.

Ahh here you go, should be some tops for your set up here.

Why do people put their thermostat on at a temp of over 18c? That temp is a nice warmish summer day, yet some have central heating blasting out at 21 +

Everybody’s physiology is different. Some people fare better in the cold than others. My wife and I are both better suited to warmer conditions; during the recent heatwaves, we were fine, whilst others suffered horribly. Some people have more fat on them, and/or higher blood pressure, which helps when it’s colder. Also; sitting still at home isn’t like having a nice brisk walk outside; you’re not generating much body heat if you’re not active. I’d probably have some sort of lightweight jacket on outside at 18ºC anyway. That isn’t a ‘nice warmish summer day’; 24ºC+ is a ‘nice warmish summer day’. 18ºC is a little chilly to me. As for 11ºC in a toilet; how on earth can you concentrate in such bitter conditions? You do know you’re allowed to have toilets indoors now, right?

@molgrips, Matty offered the info I was trying to explain. I think the bit about keeping the boiler running for longer but in its efficient mode. Uses far less fuel to get the same overall heat output. Having a boiler at full tilt firing for a few minutes then stopping rinse and repeat will make it harder for the control systems to regulate.

In your situation if you are genuinely only going to use that one room then maybe a ir panel would be better? I thinking of one for the garage as it’s a double garage that I use for woodworking and bike tinkering. Too big and too badly insulated for any kind of radiation or convection heater.

The chap who last serviced my boiler said that through winter they use the automatic time clock thing and set it to come on for 15 minutes each hour. Not on during sleeping hours, only when they’re actually in the house.

I normally just pt it on for a couple of hours in the late evening. So say bed at about 2am. Heating goes on at around 10pm-12pm or 11pm-1am.

Short term, wind in the lock sheild valve s on the other top floors to reduce flow so the downstairs gets more, hotter water faster.

I did this with the rads in the hallways (three of them) but it only just occurred to me that I should have done it to all the rads.

Having hot water going back to the boiler is ok afaik, it just wont fire and send it constantly round your office and towel rails

That’s interesting – because the pump would keep running and the heat would be stored in the water which would just keep going round until the room’s up to temp. But there are warnings about this damaging your boiler, so I dunno.

What length is the rad in your office?

Office aka bedroom 🙂 It’s single layer about 70cm wide, with fins on the back.

If you have a bypasd boiler you could smart trv the whole house. Woyld cost a fair bir in control heads

How do I know if it’s bypass? It’s an Ideal Icos HE 12

Having a boiler at full tilt firing for a few minutes then stopping rinse and repeat will make it harder for the control systems to regulate.

It used do that with the original stat, but when we bought a digital one it let us set the gap between on-off, and also move the stat around, so it stopped doing it.

Are you sure your boiler is a combi condenser? they don’t need to have hot water tanks?

It’s a condenser, afaik, but not combi.

@singletrackmind I was looking at the Drayton Wiser valves. DM me if you want to make a sale 🙂

Manual says that I need to fit a bypass valve if I want to put TRVs on all the rads. So I Googled and this is a thing that can be retrofitted. There’s a guy on YouTube fitting one, and I have a thing in my airing cupboard that looks exactly like what he is fitting. So I might have one.

Assuming I do (I’d have to verify this ofc) then the idea is that if all the rads close, the bypass valve opens and sends the water straight back to the boiler, which will then shut off the burner and just keep the hot water going around, right? Cos I think that would work.

Also; sitting still at home isn’t like having a nice brisk walk outside;

This.
Sitting at my WFH desk and not moving at 17c requires me to wear fleece joggers and slippers.
But I can happily ride a mountain bike at -5c with just shorts tee-shirt and a really light weight fleece top. And gloves obviously, hahaha!

It used do that with the original stat, but when we bought a digital one it let us set the gap between on-off, and also move the stat around, so it stopped doing it.

This must be what the guy was talking about when he said our hive was a carp controller. When we extend and have the underfloor heating installed I intend to get a better system. Do you know what yours is? I’d like to keep it smart connected but I guess it’s not an absolute requirement. Especially if the control is so good you can set and forget (almost).

I don’t have any smart/wifi connected heating stuff, but from what I’ve read about my type of system (combi boiler/condenser, no water tank) is that you dial the flow temp down to say 50c or 55c to keep the boiler in condensing mode (more efficient).

I’ll set my wall mounted thermostat to say 19c, on a programme.

Then the boiler will start slowly before the ‘on time’ on the thermostat I have in the living room, so the air temperature is what you want when you wake up, rather than going full blast at 6am for an hour, for example.

And also it should start slowly winding down toward the ‘off’ timings.

@molgrips if you have a condenser boiler but not combi, are you able to control the water tank temps independantly from the CH?

if you have a condenser boiler but not combi, are you able to control the water tank temps independantly from the CH?

Yes there is a knob on it.

There are two hot water circuits, one for the tank and one for the rads, with a motorized valve on each one.

Given that it could make sense for the water to be on at the same time as the CH to extract more heat from the boiler and produce a cooler return temp.

11° in the downstairs loo this morning.

Nearly time to double-layer the loo roll on the toilet seat 😉

Wooden seat was a game changer….

you dial the flow temp down to say 50c or 55c to keep the boiler in condensing mode (more efficient).

This, but you might find that if your emitters can’t keep up with your house heat loss, then you’ll either need bigger rads or have to turn the flow temperature up.

Given that it could make sense for the water to be on at the same time as the CH to extract more heat from the boiler and produce a cooler return temp.’

You don’t really want to do this. It really reduces system response time for actually having hot water and heating the house. You’ll be waiting ages for useable hot water, and waiting ages for the house to heat adequately.

Theres a trend to HW priority these days that runs the system at full burn to ensure available hot water in very short periods 20 to 40 minutes to 60 degrees), and a separate, much lower flow temperature for your heating to maximise the condense cycle, but you need a boiler/controls that can do it.

Hi, I was thinking that last night, our boiler just has one outlet then a 3-position valve to heat either HW, CH or both.

I’d turned the boiler down to about 2/3 thinking it would save energy but it occurred to me that it seemed to be on for a very long time, would it sit there pumping water around the circuit at ~60C because the thermostat on the HW cylinder is at 70? I think it’s actually keeping the pump (external) on and the boilers switching off when it’s upto the boilers temp but not the tank?

Boiler is nearly new, but the external controls are just a thermostat and HW/CH timer.

6deg here in the South West this morning on my 05:00 run. Heating WILL be off until November at the earliest.

@molgrips – have you checked that the rad in your office is bled and the balancing valve wound right open? When cranked up to max a radiator should be too hot to comfortably hold your hand against (across the whole surface of the radiator) – if its already in that state then getting heat to it quicker won’t make much of a difference, you just need to increase the surface area relative to the room

IANAE.

If your flow temp is 60°, you’ll never see 70° in the tank and the tank stat will just keep calling for more heat, no?

Also, Arguably you only need your tank hot water at 60-65 for Legionella pasteurisation so theres some saving to be made by reducing the temperature you store HW at and making the thermal gradient smaller.

Must boilers are pretty dumb. The boiler needs to be able to segregate high temp flow for water heating and low temp flow for CH and be able to switch between the two. I don’t know if yours can or can’t.

Last year I went through loads of quotes from ‘heating engineers’ before I found one that could actually talk with knowledge on efficiency of the system as a whole during its design and operation.

Most just wanted to hang an over powered boiler on the wall and thought down modulating would sort everything else out for them.

When cranked up to max a radiator should be too hot to comfortably hold your hand against (across the whole surface of the radiator)

Theres no ‘should’ about this.

It depends on system design. Granted there are loads of systems in the UK like this, where rads are small, run hot to squeeze as much heat out as possible and cycle the boiler on and off because the return temperature doesn’t drop adequately. That loads boilers through repeated burn cycles and pushes condensing boilers into the ‘non condensing zone’ and reduces their efficiency to the limits of a conventional non-condenser.

You’ll be waiting ages for useable hot water,

But we have a storage tank, which is well insulated, so we can run the water before anyone needs it.

have you checked that the rad in your office is bled and the balancing valve wound right open?

It is, or it was last year. I haven’t started with all this fannying around yet as it’s still off. Just walked to the shop in a t-shirt, it’s lovely and warm.

So I’m hearing that a bigger rad would help? It’s possible, there’s not a ton of room here but I could go 50% larger probably.

Theres a trend to HW priority these days that runs the system at full burn to ensure available hot water in very short periods 20 to 40 minutes to 60 degrees), and a separate, much lower flow temperature for your heating to maximise the condense cycle, but you need a boiler/controls that can do it.

Yeah mine doesn’t. It’s bog standard Wimpey cheap job.

This, but you might find that if your emitters can’t keep up with your house heat loss, then you’ll either need bigger rads or have to turn the flow temperature up.

Yeah and the heat loss will depend on external temps. There are apparently boilers that vary their heat output depending on the weather. Theoretically I could rig something up with a servo, a bit of 3D printing, some sensors and a Raspberry Pi with some adaptive code, but that’s one of those things I’ll probably design but never actually do.

Yeah. Weather compensation. I decided not to bother. Its the icing on the cake, but didn’t really add loads more efficiency to my system. It would have improved the autonomy though.

It would have improved the autonomy though.

Fair. I have my IR thermometer and the in and out pipes are exposed, so I can measure the temps and get an idea of where it needs to be at certain times of the year. So it might be a case of leaving it on medium in the late autumn, medium high in Dec and then put it up high if there’s a cold snap. I can live with that.