Not In My Name: Trans Athlete Bans

Since it won’t change this case in the slightest, take your pick.

Well Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting could volunteer to do tests (I’m not saying they should, but that they could) which would settle the matter.

I noticed that you confidently stated in an earlier post that Khelif was ‘not a man’. Do you have information I’ve not seen that leads you to say this? The WBO statements suggest otherwise – though as someone else pointed out they might not be a trustworthy source.

I’m genuinely open to suggestions about how this can be best resolved, I cannot see a way out that will leave everyone satisfied.

Which tests?

The WBO statements suggest otherwise – though as someone else pointed out they might not be a trustworthy source.

It’s not the WBO, it’s the IBA. And saying they are not trustworthy is somewhat of an understatement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Boxing_Association

WBO is the professional organisation

Oops sorry, indeed IBA (btw, I trust Wikipedia about as much as I trust the IBA).

I don’t know Kelvin, I’m not an expert on sex tests. Chromosome testing would at least provide an accurate base for people to argue from.
Would you prefer one of the other options I put forward? Self determination or open events?

What “chromosome testing” would/should deny a woman a place in the competition? Remember, there are XY mothers out there, and XY women who have gained no physical advantage in their sport due to their chromosomes. If you are suggesting there is a test good enough to exclude women from their category, you will need to be more specific (be sure to read the summary of “sex tests” at the Olympics I linked to on the previous page before answering).

Well Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting could volunteer to do tests (I’m not saying they should, but that they could) which would settle the matter.

Settle what matter? They compete as women at the Olympics under IOC rules that they satisfy.

End of.

Though I am loving some of the social media pulling in some of the trans hating male commentators who admit to taking testosterone to counter their low testosterone levels. If high testosterone levels make women “men”, surely it’s only right that it works the other way….

Ok, so which do you prefer? Self declaration of sex, or open events for both sexes?

This thread currently make me cringe. I don’t know what the rights and wrongs are but these two competitors are women under the current rules.

How do you think it make them feel to have constant questioning of their gender?

Some of you need to use your brains and have some empathy.

Ok, so which do you prefer? Self declaration of sex, or open events for both sexes?

Doesn’t matter what I think, they are competing at the Olympics under IOC rules.

I’m not really referring to the current situation – as you say they are there under current regulations. I’m talking about how we could avoid a similar situation occurring in the future. And my question was to Kelvin, though I’m interested in anyone’s answer.

Khelif’s track record was never questioned until an ambiguous test suggested otherwise.

She has been female all her life, and had been a rising star for a number of years when her sex was never questioned.

I’ll wade in despite previously staying out. And indeed I am still staying out – I’m not getting into the transathlete debate again, and certainly not into the social TG debate, I’ve +1’ed Kelvin’s comment on the last page that sums up where I am there.

I’ll also state clearly IANAE on genetics and hence the below is from a position of relative technical ignorance. I also apologise for any clumsy phrasing, it isn’t meant.

I googled and it suggests DSD occurs in between 0.1 and 0.02% (1 in 1000-5000) of births. And an athlete with (some types of) DSD may have potential advantages in some types of sport, but it’s not an absolute – Imane Khelif for example wins 4/5 bouts which isn’t exceptional, and sport isn’t overrun with DSD athletes sweeping the board.

So what to ‘do’ with them? Should they be forced to take suppressing treatments to limit their advantage, whatever that is? Or be banned altogether.

My answer – no. Sporting success already is a mix between genetic advantage, talent, and hard work. To even be competitive at that level you have to have ‘superior’ genetics, whether internal (lung capacity, fast twitch fibres, whatever) or external – size, arm span, hand size, and so on. Bolt was dominant because of his height and an unnatural stride length, no-one suggests he should have been limited to make it ‘fairer’ for other athletes. Other sprinters couldn’t win WC or Olympic models because they were born at the same time as Bolt, which is just tough.

Imane Khelif did not choose her genetics. She’s a woman with a genetic abnormality that has worked **** hard to be good at her sport. Good for her, I wish her well in the rest of this competition.

Sporting success already is a mix between genetic advantage, talent, and hard work. To even be competitive at that level you have to have ‘superior’ genetics, whether internal (lung capacity, fast twitch fibres, whatever) or external – size, arm span, hand size, and so on.

Agree whole heartedly with this. This isn’t connected to the original trans debate at all. This is about two women blessed/cursed with genetics that may (because they haven’t been dominating the sport, let’s face it) give them an advantage.

I presume there are testosterone limits in womens as well as mens boxing?

The female boxer was born female and its not like her record is incredible, she has six or something stoppages in 50 fights.

Just look at some of the female (and male) UFC fighters, juiced to the gills!

I’m talking about how we could avoid a similar situation occurring in the future.

What situation? Women being talked about as cheats because they look as if they might have unusual bodies? That situation is avoided by letting them get on with competing and shutting up. If tests for high testosterone are required (for all athletes in both men’s and women’s fields), so be it. But chromosome tests offer nothing useful. Women shouldn’t be subjected to them. History has taught us that.

I noticed that you confidently stated in an earlier post that Khelif was ‘not a man’. Do you have information I’ve not seen that leads you to say this? The WBO statements suggest otherwise – though as someone else pointed out they might not be a trustworthy source.

Sure, she’s a woman. The ONLY question comes from a discredited Russian body that DQ’d her after she beat a Russian boxer, and since they won’t even say how they tested her, I’m not minded to give that any credence whatsoever.

Thanks for telling me to shut up Kelvin, I’ll bear that in mind when I read future posts from you.

Jesus – your fragility is startling.

Me? Have you seen some of the flouncers on here when they’ve read an opinion they disagree with?

Yes, you.

Ok – I thought everyone was doing a pretty good job of keeping an emotive subject polite. I’m assuming that everyone here has good motivation, and that they’re not stating their case or asking questions because of bigotry or stubbornness.

Something I’ve said or asked has clearly pissed off you and possibly others, which was never my intention, but I don’t think ‘shutting up’ is the answer. I’ve just edited myself to remove a pithy remark as I don’t think that helps either.

Anyway, more than enough from me, I didn’t intend to be in this debate quite as much as I have been.

Good news! No-one told you to shut up.

Thanks for telling me to shut up Kelvin

I didn’t. I was referring to this being all over the press, TV, radio and social media. That’s the current problem as I see it. Previous page I referred to one of the women whose lives have been ruined by this kind of unwarranted attention and the spurious tests that came about because people were looking for simple answers to exclude women they didn’t want competing.

Forget the two boxers, athletics has a much bigger problem.  I was listening to the “women’s” 100m final last night and there was barely a women in the race. Some bloke called Alfred won it, there was another lad called Terry then there was Richards Son, and Jeffers Son as well.

These guys aren’t even pretending to not be men, should I write to my MEP to protest?

Unfortunately I had very little Internet again last night or I could have watched it to see these so called women run but I bet they had flat chests or something equally obvious that proves they were actually men.

Now, where’s my copy of the Daily Mail…

😉

Has the original article disappeared ?