Clubber – read what I posted please. I do not suggest what you claim I do.

i'm with Driller 😀
same situation here.
no pangs and no regrets.
life is GOOD 😀

unless you are suggesting a baby can accompany you going down the black runs?)

absolutely not

We manage it so that we can both have plenty of time away from the home doing our thing while the other one looks after the kids & we sometimes go places where we share the time off
None of them are babies any more but we occasionally foster very young ones

TandemJeremy – Member
I am the easygoing and least confrontational of my family however

Dear god! Really? It must be fun in your childless house at christmas!
You are bitter and resentful, otherwise why would you moan about taxes, holiday times, parent & child parking spaces? Just to make sure we had noticed without you bringing it to our attention?

Ok to summarise TJ doesnt like parents attitudes, well only those HE HAS MET, but he's not generalising or stereotyping. No like hell you are.

Well in my experience of tandem riders is they are arrogant, self obsessed arguementative trolls.

(my only experience of tandem riders is TJ, so based on my experience the above statement stands)

Im talking more of having little ones. Im sure it is different later on

an example is of someone I was aquainted with. During the week He left the house at 7.00Am and didnt usually get back until 8.00pm meaning his son was a stranger during the week. This is not unusual; we all have to work. Like you, he played football "Most Saturdays" and did the odd tour etc meaning he only got to see his child grow up for 1 day in 7 during the first few years. His wife had no time for herself apart from on the Odd Sunday and got pretty depressed about it.

Of course, with the older ones you can do stuff with them. I agree you need your own time but the balance is different for everyone

Ohh, here we go. If that is your view then you should ask for assisted suicide and stop being a drain on the earth's dwindling resources

er, no it's not THAT bad, let's get it in proportion.

– after all what purpose do you have on the planet if you are not going to scatter your seed?

What a silly question. I'm not even going to point out the ludicrousness of that question, I'm just going to leave you to stew in your own pointlessness while it sinks in just how oxymoronic what you've just said is.

Christmas? I have ignored it for decades. I have often volunteered to work so that my colleagues with children can have the time free.

Really I am not bitter – but resentful perhaps. Remember family friendly means its unfriendly for the childless.

Troll I will admit to.

Just thought I’d stick my 2p worth in – In the 18 years since my beloved wife first became pregnant, I’ve completed my nurse training; undertaking two counselling course; masters degree and an several other courses at masters level. I restarted canoeing and spent 5 years racing & training at the top national level, taken up mountain biking all whilst working full time and climbing the career ladder.
I have been a fully involved father to two amazing daughters, through them I have experienced the extremes of emotion and been challenged physically and emotionally
My wife I did consciously plan our family and was something we both wanted. I would hope that I have not inflicted them on others, but they do become all consuming and rightly so
My best mate and his partner have taken the opposite course, and yes at when I see their lifestyle times the grass appears green, but been objective they are very middle aged in there out look and can be incredibly self centred.
Having children in a choice, but culturally an expectation, and for some it works and for other it doesn’t

I've never really got the whole "not having kids is selfish" thing. Selfish to who exactly? Surely you can only be selfish if you put yourself before others, not if you put yourself before theoretical people that don't exist yet?

er… not necessarily. Selfishness just means putting yourself first.
Whether you do that by getting in front of whoever's second, or simply by making sure there ISN'T anybody to be second, is irrelevant.

In all seriousness the only moral qualms I have about not having kids is that I suspect that my parents would quite like to have grandchildren, although I don't think they mind not doing.
However I have two brothers, one of which is already married and seems bought into the whole settling-down thing so I think he's more likely to than me anyway 😉

TJ, i tend to avoid family friendly if possible, but bear in mind there are plenty of places I cant go, should i have my son with me.

And the one that made me cry – whilst talking to our 3 year old I asked her what her favourite colour was, her answer "The colour of your eyes Daddy". Bless.

did it make you cry because you were happy or because she explicitly pointed out what was her favourite colour and in doing so poked you in the eye 😆

this thread has made great reading, all sorts of comments and thoughts here. So I gotta add something! I'm 43, never wanted kids until I met the wife (spent my life partying!) and even then was unsure (like SFB if I remember rightly)
Now have 2 kids, aged 1 & 2 years and one of each. Don't want more. But they are the best thing ever, and, you will only truly understand the joy (and yes stress, lack of sleep and frustration) they bring once you have them. I am now healthier than I ever was (less partying more biking) I'm not saying have / don't have kids, it's all down to choice but maybe don't be so keen to say "I'm not having any" until you are too old to anyway

Plus only reason anything living thing exists is to reproduce to ensure its contuinued existence anyway.

don't get this at all. Says who?

Im not so pious to suggest everyone would benefit in becoming a parent, (there are people out the who should NEVER be allowed to reproduce, but thats for another thread.), but at least we as parents can say with conviction whether we like it or not!
Its not for everyone i admit, my parenting days didnt start until i was 34, so i'd had time to do the selfish things (and rather enjoyed it thank you), but felt my existence lacked, erm i dunno, focus i guess.

bonj – Member

Plus only reason anything living thing exists is to reproduce to ensure its contuinued existence anyway.

don't get this at all. Says who?
Erm, biology?

aah … someone has mentioned my pet hate! Why is it that as a woman whenever anyone brings a baby into the office I'm supposed to join everyone else cooing and clucking over it! Why does everyone do that? (or expect everyone to be interested in their new baby photo that they e-mail round!)

I'm not interested, I think baby's are really quite unattractive, and I'm find it rather annoying that there is a very definate expectation that I'm supposed to coo! I happen to really like dogs, but I don't expect everyone to coo over photo's of a new puppy, and I certain;y wouldn't e-mail said pic's round the entire office (even though puppy's are way cuter than babies!)

There is a culture of 'children are wonderful' that you are expected to comply with, and it's often frowned upon to say 'actually I don't have children becuase I really don't like them'.

bonj – Member

Plus only reason anything living thing exists is to reproduce to ensure its contuinued existence anyway.

don't get this at all. Says who?

In so much as there is any purpose in our existence then furthering the species and breeding to fill our food supply is about it.

Says Richard Dawkins.

Google 'the selfish gene'

Puppies are cuter than babies

and a kitten playing with wool beats the puppy.

where does a penguin falling into a lake come?
what about Meercats

for the record I always hated the kids on "Youve ben framed" until I had one…

but the Dog clip always wins

oh and I always coo over puppy pictures but if the baby picture isnt of mine, I kind of pretend to be interested

There is a culture of 'children are wonderful' that you are expected to comply with, and it's often frowned upon to say 'actually I don't have children becuase I really don't like them'.

isn't it really (some) people are wonderful, and children are a kind of people ? Perhaps children are more unpredicatable and unruly – thank heavens, so not liking them to me at least implies a craving for predictability and dullness

I don't expect everyone to coo over photo's of a new puppy

Up your expectations a bit.

I am female,39 and have no children. I wanted them when I was younger but it just hasn't happened. Not a decision I made, circumstances decided for me. Wasted my twenties with a loser and spent the majority of my thirties single. Decided that as I was over thirty I was too old to give birth and announced I didn't want any. Cue disbelief and astonishment from friends and work mates. Especially those with little ones. Circumstances have changed again and I find myself with a lovely fella who would love to be a dad but thinks it's too late! 🙄

Erm, biology?

Other sciences are available….

Read the sentence again, think about how it applies to this discussion. The inference is that the only useful thing you can do is breed. That may be true for you, but it isn't for me 🙂

Im not having kids.I hated being a child, pretty much every day and made up my mind that it would be selfish to inflict that on another generation. This has probably had an effect on my relationship status (ie non existant). Some of its down to money, lifestyle, job security , difficult parents, but its not just me, my brother is the same, although he has had girlfriends. My sister had twins and they drove her mad for the first year and she ended up in therapy. Its better now they are 8 year olds as at least you can hold a conversation with them.
I dont see the problem with not having children.
You get to do what you want , when you want, and not have to worry about school choices , stroppy teenage angst, drugs, sex , violence, knife crime , alcohol abuse, whos bullying who in the playground, what colour trainers are in this month etc taking kids away on holiday and they wont want to go, like little miss sunshine.

I had a fantastic childhood, which consisted largely of running around in the hills and woods, Wordsworth stylee, with my dog. I'd want to be able to guarantee something similar for any children of my own… but I live a pretty frugal life, and I'm bludy self-indulgent with my own time & interests. I'm not saying that precludes either a stable relationship or a decent environment inwhich to bring up kids (as others have demonstrated), but I'm – very – wary of imposing my own choices on others.

Mind you, I'm also pretty ugly. 8)

My riding pal has a 60K Merc & a 650K house, a lovely missus as well. No kids, he's 42 & his next step may be a black lab.
Work it out.

his next step may be a black lab

Yeah, I think this may be my "child-substitute" plan.

a dog is a substitute child like a dinky toy is a substitute bike 🙁

Plus only reason anything living thing exists is to reproduce to ensure its contuinued existence anyway.

don't get this at all. Says who?

Erm, biology?

Biology governs HOW we exist. It has no place in determining WHY.

I think baby's are really quite unattractive, and I'm find it rather annoying that there is a very definate expectation that I'm supposed to coo! I happen to really like dogs

the one thing i can say for having children in this case is that there comes a point where you no longer have to pick up their shit and spoon stinking meat out of a can….

and spoon stinking meat out of a can….

you sure it was a real baby and not a small vampire ?

The inference is that the only useful thing you can do is breed

It's wrong in two ways:
one, it assumes breeding is useful – why is this assumed to be the case.
Two, it assumes there isn't anything ELSE that's useful – again, an invalid assumption imho.

That's being slightly obtuse in that the wrongness stems from the same premise, in that breeding isn't any LESS useful than anything else we do, but it isn't necessarily MORE useful either.

I'm wondering if the ones foreswearing parenthood are grateful their parents made a different choice or resentful of the burden of life ?

I'm very grateful my parents made a different choice 😀 but then again whilst having no current desire to have kids, people change, we're fickle like that. For a chap who likes things unpredictable sfb, you spend a lot of posts trying to label people 😉

you spend a lot of posts trying to label people

I wasn't labelling anyone, I was asking a question. I'm quite neutral about the matter, parenthood is voluntary and I endorse that 🙂 Exactly which labels do you think I've applied and where ?

I would suggest that I reject categorising people in all circumtances and you are as wrong as can be about the matter!

People who don't like children implies….. I endeavour to label you as. For the record I love spending time with my neices and nephews for the exact reasons you point out, but you asked for an example.

People who don't like children implies…

I would call that deduction, not labelling. Since children are highly varied from awful to wonderful, someone saying they don't like children is really something about themselves rather than the children

You call it that then, and I'll stick to my own deductions.

The thread seems to be degenerating a little, but getting back to the point/question.

Not having children is the only thing I truly regret(44).

…whilst having no current desire to have kids, people change, we're fickle like that.

Common theme on this thread is folk (on both sides) saying that those who don't want kids now, may change their mind later; while a few determined souls seem to say that the very suggestion that they might possibly succumb to billions of years of genetic programming is incredibly offensive.

I suspect that whatever path people take, there are some reasons to be jealous of those on the other.